Epitestosterone, premature balding, and "male PCOS"
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Supposedly you can increase epitestosterone by topically applying 7-keto-DHEA. I doubt applying it to the scalp would do anything, but if I can get the 7-keto-DHEA to dissolve, I'll put some on my scalp and on my navel/stomach and see what happens.
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@Gaston do keep us updated on that. I want to try 7kDHEA but I don’t want to make anything worse.
My hair is not too bad at the moment but since stopping progesterone I have been shedding more than usual. I’m close to just giving up on exogenous steroids and thyroid+cholesterol+bloomaxxing because every time I introduce some kind to steroid it either greatly aggravates shedding (Pansterone) or makes me feel and look like shite (Cortinon)
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Thanks for those papers! 57% of those who are already bald by age 45 have metabolic syndrome compared to 14% of non-bald 43 year olds. That's an impressive result.
@Gaston said in Epitestosterone, premature balding, and "male PCOS":
Supposedly you can increase epitestosterone by topically applying 7-keto-DHEA. I doubt applying it to the scalp would do anything, but if I can get the 7-keto-DHEA to dissolve, I'll put some on my scalp and on my navel/stomach and see what happens.
Interesting! Where did you find that out? I couldn't find anything about it.
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@insufferable
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/CCLM.2005.038/html
I came across it in one of Hans' articles.
https://testonation.com/2022/01/17/7-keto-dhea-what-you-need-to-know-fat-loss-thyroid-androgens-etc/
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@Gaston Awesome, thank you! That's the first place I've seen any mention of an epiT increase.
~12% testosterone decrease, ~80% epitestosterone increase.
I know nothing about 7-keto-DHEA. Do you have any idea why it would do that?
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@insufferable
I can't say that I understand the mechanism, no. But that's not going to stop me from recklessly experimenting! -
@Gaston You might be on to something.
I remember when taking 7ketoDHEA my hairloss was decreased. It is pretty safe to experiment with.it is not water soluble though.
"7 Keto DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a white crystalline powder. It is very soluble in warm methanol, soluble in ethanol, and not soluble in water. Micronized so that 90% of particles are less than 20 μm."
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I am going to try to dissolve a few mg of 7ketoDHEA in alcohol and apply it to my scalp.
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The whole section under anti-andrigenic activity really doesnt sound good...
But if it is only locally in the scalp, it might be ok.
The difference of epitestosterone in the scalp between balding and non-balding fasthers is huge. Non-balding fathers have an almost 6 times lower Testosterone/ epitestosterone ratio in the scalp.
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This is how I attempted to dissolve the powder:
7-Keto-DHEA
300mg powder
1/2 oz. dropper bottle
~15% isopropyl myristate (I don't think this is necessary, but I had some left over from dissolving DHEA powder)
~80% ethanol
(~5% powder)
~300 drops
~1mg per dropIt didn't fully dissolve, but that's because there are excipients in the capsule like silicon dioxide and magnesium stearate. I don't think that there exists a commercially available source of pure 7-Keto-DHEA powder.
When I apply 10mg to my navel I get sleepy as heck, but that could also be because I'm laying down when I do it lol
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@Gaston it’s anti-cortisol and doesn’t supply a substrate to make estrogen so feeling sleepy is not unusual.
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@insufferable and how to cure PCOS?
Inositol??
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it won't work topically??
Effects of transdermal application of 7-oxo-DHEA on the levels of steroid hormones, gonadotropins and lipids in healthy men.
Sulcová J1, Hill M, Masek Z, Ceska R, Novácek A, Hampl R, Stárka L.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11300231 -
W wester130 referenced this topic on
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@saturnuscv I now think men could try licorice, vitex and spearmint and schisandra
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8140208/
testosterone is "bad" when it is out of control
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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16462145/
licorice reduced dhea-s
stinging nettles reduced cortisol too
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bumping ancient thread
Unconvinced that EpiTestosterone is a meaningful anti-androgen.
See:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0303720717304677
"Replacement with either epitestosterone or testosterone restored the anogenital distance (AGD) and testicular weight which had been reduced by chemical castration. The immunocontent of nAR and the nAR-immunoreactivity were reduced by epitestosterone treatment in the testis of both castrated and non-castrated animals. Furthermore, testosterone was unable of changing the membrane potential of Sertoli cells through its non-classical action in the group of animals castrated and replaced with epitestosterone. In conclusion, in relation to the level of protein expression of nAR epitestosterone acts as an anti-androgen. However, it acts in the same way as testosterone when genital development parameters are evaluated"This implies that it is not an anti-androgen, at least in the genitals and gonads, and may even play a protective and pro-androgenic role.
Besides this, it also is a substrate for 5AR and subsequent HSD neurosteroids, albeit the 17a equivalents.
It is also an aromatase inhibitor, acting as a substrate for aromatase that produces 17a-estradiol, which is a non-feminizing estrogen.
All together, this implies to me that it could potentially be a valuable compound in restoring a more youthful hormonal balance. Especially considering that it declines more rapidly than its 17b counterparts with age.
Thoughts?
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@jimmynelson interesting thread.
I'm one of the few people that knows their EpiT and mine was below the limit of detection. And i do have hair loss so that checks out.
https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/3299/my-wild-idealabs-nail-test-results-opinions?_=1782297182369
How does one obtain it?
Maybe the 7keto option would work, but it won't dissolve. Maybe a pure powder dissolved in oil ? -
Androstenedione raises EpiT very strongly.
Maybe that's easier to acquire.
But the T:E ratio also increased, meaning Testosterone increased even more. So it's not like it only increases EpiT."The means (microg/h) for groups 1, 2, and 3, respectively were, for epitestosterone 2.27, 7.74, and 18.0; for E-precursor, 2.9, 2.0, and 1.5; for EM-1/E-precursor 0.31, 1.25, and 2.88; for EM-2/E-precursor 0.14, 0.15, and 1.15; for testosterone/epitestosterone (T/E) 1.1, 3.5, and 3.2. "
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11996927/ -
@Mauritio I've been trying to get ahold of epiTest myself for some time. And I've recently communicated with a reputable and well known steroid source who says he will be willing to provide a custom synthesis of it in MCT oil.
However, his minimum purchase amount in USD is quite high for a custom synth ($10k USD) - granted the amount he is offering for that price is not unreasonable (50-100g) - It would need to be a group buy most likely. I would be willing to participate in a group buy if there was substantial interest. (I'm trying to evangelize on X)
Maybe the 7keto option would work, but it won't dissolve. Maybe a pure powder dissolved in oil ?
7keto I think only works if you're natty, because it works by occupying some key enzyme which then shifts the balance for androstenedione towards 17a rather than 17b. If you're not really producing androstenedione to begin with, I doubt it's really relevant. I'm not natty so it's useless to me but for others probably useful.
Androstenedione raises EpiT very strongly.
This raises an interesting question of whether androstenedione might be a better "base" compound for a steroid cycle as it supplies a precursor for both test AND epitest, so it even though it raises the T:Epi ratio in a vacuum, compared to just being on test and having 0 EpiT it might be comparatively desirable.
The same source sells a DHEA ester and I wonder if that might be a similar situation...
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