The pro-metabolic effects of apple polyphenols
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@Mauritio absolutely!
Ray Peat In his own words:
https://www.bioenergetic.life/clips/ae826?t=1322&c=25"The biology is changed by every experience. The brain is constantly in development and that involves what you're learning. So what you learn changes your structure and so your mind is changed and so the meaning of what you learned has changed. You're changing your past every time you learn something because you become a different organism."
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@Mauritio Thanks for bringing this thread over from RPF.
I had to stop with the apple powder I bought (Malus pumila) from Bulk Supplements, as it was causing the typical malaise I get from supplements. I'll probably use it as a topical on my scalp. I may try the Swanson apple polyphenols you're taking at some point.
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Returning to "to peel or not to peel" (that is the question), industrial distributed apples have a new fungical coating to extend their shelf life. The FDA designated it, known as Apeel, as organic and it does not have to be identified on the product. As always, let the buyer beware.
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Interesting. I thought polyphenols were all estrogenic and DHT blockers
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Chocolate is also rich in procyanidin B-2, isn't it? I'm not sure if you'll remember this, but there was a user on RPF who claimed drinking store-bought chocolate milk did a lot to ameliorate his hair loss. I can't remember any further details, but perhaps this is another dot you've connected already?
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I've often had quite pronounced allergic reactions to certain apples, but especially if the peel is left on, despite pesticide content - in fact, I have an apple tree in my garden, and despite keeping it clean and well-cared for without the use of any pesticides, and despite taking care to clean everything adequately, I've had reactions to them too.
I found this brief clip of Peat saying that some of the more popular species of apple develop an insecticidal enzyme which can be highly allergenic, but that this might be reduced with cooking, so perhaps I'm unlucky in that I have one of those species. Does it stand to reason that the procyanidin B-2 content would vary significantly between species, and if so - perhaps if one wanted as high a procyanidin B-2 content as possible, it might be fruitful to attempt to discover which species are commonly used for extraction by the supplement manufacturers? I wasn't able to find many papers which explored this, although this one about phenol content of a few apple species might be a useful starting point.
Interviewer: "[...] what types of fruit do you recommend, and which ones do you think could hurt us instead of help us? [...]"
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Ray Peat: "[...] besides the starch problem with some fruits such as bananas, you have the allergy problem: and I think that's partly because of the industrialisation of banana-farming, use of a lot of chemicals, and just overuse of the soil stresses the plants - and you've heard of the latex allergy, probably, corresponding to the banana allergy? Both of those, the rubber tree and the banana plant are highly-industrialised, stressed crops, and I think that it's the defensive stress substances that the plants evolved to kill insects which were attacking them. Those highly-cropped species produce this insecticidal enzyme which happens to be highly allergenic to humans. Even some brands of apples have quite a high allergen content, and cooking many of the allergenic fruits makes them safer to eat. [...]"I think perhaps this isn't news to a lot of people viewing this thread, but I've included it just in case it helps someone make a connection later.
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@DavidPS said in The pro-metabolic effects of apple polyphenols:
Returning to "to peel or not to peel" (that is the question), industrial distributed apples have a new fungical coating to extend their shelf life. The FDA designated it, known as Apeel, as organic and it does not have to be identified on the product. As always, let the buyer beware.
Thanks for sharing! A new rabbithole...it's wild how complicated the decision of peeling an apple (or not) can be, indeed an existential question.
Apeel contains mono and diglycerides of (vegetable) fatty acids, which is nothing new. This is E471 in Europe, which is contained in chocolate ,meat, cream bread and more. It shouldnt be too health concerning. I think it even occurs naturally during lypolisis.
But, most E471 is made from genetically modified soy beans, that already sounds more concering. And this article (in german) says it can cause allergic reactions in some people.
Wikipedia says this:
" A French study published in 2024 concluded that a higher intake of E471 increases the risk of cancer by 15%, particularly breast cancer (24%) and prostate cancer (46%).[7]"--> coincidentally both breast and prostate cancer are highly estrogen-driven, so maybe there is an estrogenic activity here, which makes me lean more towards peeling my apples again.
If you want to look at it from a conspiratorial angle, it doesnt look good either. Bill Gates and the WEO both supported it.
Is there anyway of knowing if a company uses apeel? Maybe it's the glowing fatty layer on some apples that always seemed suspicious to me?
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E471 on health:
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Effect on CVD:
" Additionally, higher intakes of monoglycerides and diglycerides of fatty acids (E471 and E472) were associated with higher risks of all outcomes. Among these emulsifiers, lactic ester of monoglycerides and diglycerides of fatty acids (E472b) was associated with higher risks of CVD (1.06, 1.02 to 1.10, P=0.002) and cerebrovascular disease (1.11, 1.06 to 1.16, P<0.001), and citric acid ester of monoglycerides and diglycerides of fatty acids (E472c) was associated with higher risks of CVD (1.04, 1.02 to 1.07, P=0.004) and coronary heart disease (1.06, 1.03 to 1.09, P<0.001). " -
Effect on cancer:
"Higher intakes of mono- and diglycerides of fatty acids (FAs) (E471) were associated with higher risks of overall cancer (HR high vs. low category = 1.15; 95% CI [1.04, 1.27], p-trend = 0.01), breast cancer (HR = 1.24; 95% CI [1.03, 1.51], p-trend = 0.04), and prostate cancer (HR = 1.46; 95% CI [1.09, 1.97], p-trend = 0.02). In addition, associations with breast cancer risk were observed for higher intakes of total carrageenans (E407 and E407a) (HR = 1.32; 95% CI [1.09, 1.60], p-trend = 0.009) and carrageenan (E407) (HR = 1.28; 95% CI [1.06, 1.56], p-trend = 0.01). "
Only a correlation, but still worrying.
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From what Ive read in germany at least two major supermarkets use Apeel (EDEKA and Netto). I actually buy my apples from EDEKA.
They are not required by law to declare Apeel usage, but on some fruits they added an apeel sticker, because they actually use this for advertising it as sustainable etc. (https://verbund.edeka/verantwortung/handlungsfelder/sortiment/apeel-produkte/)
Another way this can be spotted as the price, as apeel products should be a lot more expensive.
Acoording to this article (in german) from august 23, apeel is not beeing used in europe currently, at least on fruits where the peel is eaten, not so in the USA, here it is already beeing used on apples.
But theres more: apeel is not the only company there is a brithish company Agricoat which uses "Nature Seal" , known as E473 (german supermarket Rewe uses it), which seems to be more safe, but is also made from soy oil and potentially genetically modified.
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@CreakyJoints said in The pro-metabolic effects of apple polyphenols:
Chocolate is also rich in procyanidin B-2, isn't it? I'm not sure if you'll remember this, but there was a user on RPF who claimed drinking store-bought chocolate milk did a lot to ameliorate his hair loss. I can't remember any further details, but perhaps this is another dot you've connected already?
Yes, apples and cocoa are basically the only foods that contain appreciable amounts of pro-B2.
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@CreakyJoints Interesting. When I was a child I also couldnt stand the peel on apples. But good to know that it does not have to be the pesticides.
Yes, usually polyphenol content varies a lot. I have identified a band of apple juice that gives me a similar effect to the supplement so I buy this one a lot. But generally I dont stress about that too much.
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@questforhealth anyone else have an opinion on this? i always thought the same. even if procyanidin does work for hair loss i'm not that interested if it just works through being anti-DHT
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@hypercashoidism said in The pro-metabolic effects of apple polyphenols:
@questforhealth anyone else have an opinion on this? i always thought the same. even if procyanidin does work for hair loss i'm not that interested if it just works through being anti-DHT
Have you read this thread ? lol
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@Mauritio i'm still not sure since i remember reading that 'theory of everything' reddit post a while back which theorised that procyanidin works through increasing intracellular degradation of DHT through the increase of an enzyme i forgot the name of. In that case i'm not sure if that's something i want, i'm more interested in better eyebrows and facial hair which more DHT breakdown would antagonise
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@hypercashoidism said in The pro-metabolic effects of apple polyphenols:
@Mauritio i'm still not sure since i remember reading that 'theory of everything' reddit post a while back which theorised that procyanidin works through increasing intracellular degradation of DHT through the increase of an enzyme i forgot the name of. In that case i'm not sure if that's something i want, i'm more interested in better eyebrows and facial hair which more DHT breakdown would antagonise
Balding is a metabolic disease. And this thread offers 10 different mechanisms on how procyanidin helps with that, if that's not enough and you rather rely on some post you read some time ago that you vaguely remember, then I dont know what to tell you.
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@Mauritio i'd like to believe it would work but those 10 things may do less for the hair growth i want than higher DHT would. i like to look at everything from all angles, 100 benefits may be outweighed by 1 downside
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@Mauritio are you still experimenting with apples / procyanidin-B2?
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@Gaston Not really. I suspect that they might be responsible for my crazY hormone test results. But thats a wild Speculation. I take theh about 1/Week still.
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@Mauritio I've been applying this product to my scalp for almost 2 months and it seems to be having a positive effect on hair growth, at least in the temple area.
https://tokibotanicals.com/apple-skin-15-procyanidin-b2-organic-extract/
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@Gaston nice, how do You dissolve it?