Testosterone + DHT cycle
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Hello everyone,
I recently started at 120mg Testosterone, 120mg DHT, and 2-3mg Androsterone
While all was going well, I started getting some symptoms in the past 2 weeks such as:- a bit of water weight/edema
- hot flashes during the day
- night sweats
- subtle acne
- hair falling out
Are these symptoms related to elevated estrogen? Would it be best to add an aromatase inhibitor now? I'm so lost on how to go about this.
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@angel With that much dht I would say that your estrogen is tanked.
Also the test converts to the dht.
So drop the dht and after few days you should get better
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That seems like unphysiological amounts of test/dht. I don't think ray recommended more than 4mg of test, and that's after thyroid/dhea/pregnenolone were okay.
During stress, testosterone aromatizes to estrogen, and those symptoms are highly conducive of that.
An aromatase inhibitor like aspirin would be good, and progesterone to oppose the estrogen. -
Strange that you mention water weight/edema. Your estrogen is likely super low due to that super high amount of DHT so wonder what could be causing that. How are you taking the hormones? DHT should be acting as an aromatize inhibitor. If you are still aromatizing at that amount of DHT I think you should stop the experiment and fix other things before continuing
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@izkrov That's standard TRT dose.
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@milkgains_bro Thank you for replying! I'm a little lost as someone else said the testosterone aromatizes into estrogen under stress. Would it be more suitable to just drop the test?
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@izkrov From what I remember, 120mg is considered standard dosing for people on TRT. Would you say the symptoms experienced are more likely to be that of too high or low estrogen?
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@metabolicmilk I'm currently applying both topically as gels. What I am worried about when stopping is that estrogen will shoot back up and cause worse symptoms to occur than what's currently happening. I know DHT can't aromatize into estrogen but I'm suspecting it's likely the testosterone that's doing so?
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As discussed by Derek and Leo on Youtube, DHT and synthetic derivatives like masteron don't exactly inhibit aromatase. They antagonize estrogen on the transcriptional level. To put this in a more direct way...DHT doesn't inhibit estrogen synthesis. It only prevents estrogen from carrying out it's full "mechanism of action."
There is no "standard" to what that means in individuals. It will likely prevent gyno for most people, as I've seen people on different forums state numerous times that they use mast with T to prevent bitch tits.
It might also stop edema idk. Water retention is caused by estrogen, prolactin, aldosterone, and vasopressin. Androgens is not a cause, so this leads me to believe the DHT you're using isn't effective at combating this. But you should really really really get bloodwork done bro. Don't embark on HRT therapy blindfolded. Knowing where you stand makes it much easier to correct issues like this.
Are you fat, or at least carrying extra adipose tissue? A lot of fat dudes have a hard time with TRT because of all the aromatase action in their fat. Leads to a vicious cycle really, because low-T fat people need to lose weight before taking testosterone, but testosterone is so important for weight loss. So it's kinda like being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
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@Mulloch94 Thanks for replying! What do you think would be the best course of action? I'm thinking to slowly lower the dose until I've tapered off completely but as stated before, I'm more nervous about the symptoms that will arise when coming off.
I did make sure to get bloodwork before starting and as suspected, androgens had come back quite low with elevated estrogen. I'm at a normal BMI but could drop a bit of weight.
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@angel I understand that it's the standard protocol, but I still don't think it's safe. Testosterone aromatizes to estrogen, the negative effects you're feeling are from high estrogen and anyone that says it's from low estrogen is deeply wrong. I got the 4mg number from here:
https://youtu.be/E21sYPiYHtM?si=ZRvzpTfYgS97zhYz&t=265 -
@angel If you're estrogen was above the reference before starting T therapy, then that would be a prime suspect to check. Because it's very likely to have not gone down much, if not outright increased some.
If it were me, I would probably back off the DHT some and just take exemestane. I'm generally not a fan of AI's, but if your E2 is elevated there's less of a chance it's going to cause you issues. Start out with really low dosages, and slowly taper up if the low dose isn't effective. As little as 3mgs daily can block aromatase 70%.
Also keep an eye on your prolactin. It would probably be good to get on some P5P and vitamin E to control prolactin. After you get all this dialed in and your symptoms begin to subside, then you can think about adding DHT to the stack. But in reality, it's probably not needed if you're using transdermal testosterone. If you do use it, something as little as 35-50mgs is metabolically effective (this reference is in regard to insulin sensitivity, showing 35mg of DHT to be effective).
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@izkrov Yeah that's Ray's take on it. It's important to understand the TRT community has very different views, and actually isn't that compatible with ours. We do "patch work" here to mix some of the ideas in the TRT community with bioenergetics.
Standard TRT protocol is usually something like 120 up to 250 a week. Typically test cypionate. 4mgs won't raise blood levels which is what the TRT is purposed for.
Of course this can cause issues. For one, test cypionate is a longer acting ester. Your levels won't mimic the diurnal rhythm. I don't think we've yet fully understood the implications of this. Most of the "bros" seems to think this is good, because longer esters mean more stabilized androgens at a higher level.
But this could have serious adverse effects too. Like being at an increased risk of hyperestrogenicity, clots, stroke, and the like. It will have a prolonged suppression on the HPTA as well, lowering fertility (unless you take hCG, which has it's own set of risks) and eventually upstream hormones like P5, P4, and DHEA.
