Thyroid supplements leading to lack of drive & deteriorating energy
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Hey guys - been engaging in the literature and community for a while. The world is better for it
For a while now, I’ve seen a drop in energy levels. Lifting used to feel great after the session - now it is fatiguing. The lack in energy first thing in the morning is evident — and this is a visible difference compared to last year when things were vibrant.
This can either be attributed to i) quit a job a while ago, the stress of figuring out what’s to come (even though I’m extremely optimistic about the future, there is a natural stress attached to it) ii) tried a bout of carnivore last year for about a month. ended it because I needed carbs. Decided never again to go down that path
iii) shifted houses recently and access to the sun dropped heavily, and so amount of morning sun has droppedAfter engaging in peat’s works for about half a year, I saw that temps were around 97F, pulse around 60, and I started making a case to myself about the hypo connection. It was in the lower basal temps, pulse, dipping in energy, etc. Nothing is terribly bad, but the change I could notice concerned me.
Brain energy to stay focused on one task was lacking - I am finding it tough to do one thing great, take it through to completion, etc.
Sociability has reduced. I love meeting people. But the propensity to want to go out to new places and new experiences has dropped, and I’m rather finding myself choosing what I know works consistently
Noticing this, I got some panels done. Prolactin high (25), serotonin around 125, PTH around 69, TSH increased from 2.4 to 3.1 in 6 months. Cholesterol 170. Calcium and phosphorous both on the upper end, though the high calcium and high PTH connection tells me that it’s actually a sign of low calcium and the process to get calcium restored through bones and other pathways.
So somewhat curiously, I tried 2 thyroid supplements, and both did not sit right at all.
The first was an off-shelf supplement that was a higher dose than needed on day 1 (150mg natural glandular). After a couple days of that, instantly felt uneasy, lack of motivation and drive, and just overall not right. So I stopped it. Gave it a 2-3 weeks of no supplementation
Then, after reading about ideal dosing and more, I tried a homeopathic supplement ‘thyroidinum 3x’. It’s supposed to be sheep glandular. Tried this for 2 days — again lost all motivation, drive, had ears ringing in the morning, etc
Currently, I have NDT from Life Giving Store on the way to try a broad barnes esque slow, small increments approach
Only other sups I have are Mag GLycinate which I take occasionally, Vit E for whenever eating outside food and fats, and vitamin D. Recently got some niacinamide and thiamine hcl in tablet form. Considering the purity of these too and might switch to better options.
So my open questions are as follows
- Is the uneasy and ‘lack of motivation’ feeling expected when starting thyroid? I read about stress/fat metabolism adapting to glucose metabolism taking time etc - so is this just part of the process? Would love to hear more around this
- Should I even bother with thyroid? Rather just optimise food, stress, sun, and pursuing life with stimulating experiences?
- Prolactin/Serotonin and stress connections - realistically how should one go about getting those down?
- Any other suggestions or thoughts?
Thanks. Much appreciated.
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@bhspeat said in Thyroid supplements leading to lack of drive & deteriorating energy:
So somewhat curiously, I tried 2 thyroid supplements, and both did not sit right at all.
The first was an off-shelf supplement that was a higher dose than needed on day 1 (150mg natural glandular). After a couple days of that, instantly felt uneasy, lack of motivation and drive, and just overall not right. So I stopped it. Gave it a 2-3 weeks of no supplementation
Then, after reading about ideal dosing and more, I tried a homeopathic supplement ‘thyroidinum 3x’. It’s supposed to be sheep glandular. Tried this for 2 days — again lost all motivation, drive, had ears ringing in the morning, etc
Most people do not do that well on T4 monotherapy, and most glandular supplements (that are sold as such and not explicitly as NDT) apparently are quite low in T3. Too much T4 can actually exacerbate symptoms of hypothyroidism. You might do well on actual NDT, which should have 4:1 T4:T3 ratio (for the time being it works for me), you might need an even lower ratio (such as 3:1 that Peat has once recommended) or a more complicated schedule.
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@DonkeyDude Interesting. shall factor this in. Curious, what indicators might exist to prove whether the conversion from t4 to t3 is the problem, or the actual production of both is the problem?
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If you don’t have the discipline to stick to a constant dosage over at least 4 weeks, then thyroid supplementation is not for you.
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@bhspeat said in Thyroid supplements leading to lack of drive & deteriorating energy:
Curious, what indicators might exist to prove whether the conversion from t4 to t3 is the problem, or the actual production of both is the problem?
I'm not sure. What I do know is that apparently if T4 is not converted to T3, it gets turned into reverse T3 instead; and according to Peat rT3 is an antithyroid substance in its own right. In a healthy organism, this is an useful feedback loop: when the body doesn't need any more T3, the the rT3 that gets produced instead stops the thyroid from producing more and thus prevents hyperthyroidism. However if the organism has already "settled" on a low metabolic state, adding more T4 will only serve to further suppress natural production.
In other words, I would interpret Ray Peat's ideas in such a way as to not see impaired T4 production and impaired conversion to T3 as distinct problems. Rather, one drives the other in a feedback loop: low T4 production downregulates peripheral conversion, low peripheral conversion suppresses T4 production. Thus usually some amount of exogenous T3 is needed to overcome the problem.
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@GreekDemiGod Thanks for the response. I do agree. But does that entail sticking with it even if it hinders daily quality of living experience? and the ability to take on tasks to build a good life? genuine question.
i didn't think so during the last 2 experiences on thyroid supp. I listened to reactions and perceptions, and decided to stop, recalibrate, and do it a better way again
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@DonkeyDude Appreciate this. I also read your other thread and experience with the adrenaline and mag glycinate. Cool to see the change with time. Thanks for sharing and hope that's stabilising now
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@bhspeat said in Thyroid supplements leading to lack of drive & deteriorating energy:
@GreekDemiGod Thanks for the response. I do agree. But does that entail sticking with it even if it hinders daily quality of living experience? and the ability to take on tasks to build a good life? genuine question.
i didn't think so during the last 2 experiences on thyroid supp. I listened to reactions and perceptions, and decided to stop, recalibrate, and do it a better way again
I think you started with a very high dose. 130mcg? That's like 2 grains.
I recently started with 25mcg T3 and 15-25 mcg T3. -
If I understand correctly, your TSH got worse after 6 months of Peating? Whatever you were doing, maybe you should try stopping.
Have you got iron and red blood cell lab work? Perhaps they are low? I disagree with ray about low iron being good. Do you avoid meat now?
No morning sun always gives me an unpleasant sort of prickly feeling like static in my head that I (very unscientifically) associate with prolactin. I've found light to be very important for me, it really makes a big difference.
Are you on your computer a lot?
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@bhspeat said in Thyroid supplements leading to lack of drive & deteriorating energy:
Then, after reading about ideal dosing and more, I tried a homeopathic supplement ‘thyroidinum 3x’. It’s supposed to be sheep glandular. Tried this for 2 days — again lost all motivation, drive, had ears ringing in the morning, etc
The homeopathic product at best only contained a tiny micro dose of thyroid, most likely it contained no actual thyroid at all. So any negative reaction you experienced was probably either completely unrelated or a "nocebo" response.
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@bhspeat
Prolactin way too high. Should be under 10. Heard progesterone brings prolactin down. -
You also need vitamin A if you're taking thyroid, so make sure you're eating liver. Vitamins D & E should have a prolactin lowering effect, but maybe throwing in some P5P would help too. The high TSH and low thyroid is going to keep prolactin elevated no matter what you do, so fixing that will be the long term solution. If you don't start noticing a decrease in TSH while taking your thyroid supplement you may just need to change products.
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@bhspeat this cholesterol level may be a bit low for exogenous thyroid tinkering as I recall at least 200 being safe.
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I think the tiredness can be from suppressed pituitary activity when you’ve been used to running on more cortisol and adrenaline. Takes time to shift away from the stress physiology. And I’ve heard that TSH can rise at first when the stress hormones are being lowered, now the pituitary can work on stimulating the thyroid system.
I would start at a super slow dose NDT and slowly raise every 2 weeks.
U can also use a heat lamp or halogen lamp in the morning.
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@insufferable Definitely lot of laptop work — i enjoy it considering i'm attempting to build something in the world as well
my TSH has risen in 6 months, though not directly attributed to "Peating" as a whole. I think there was a stressor/other reason, and along the way, i've been "Peating" to attempt to curb this change
I have not gotten Iron work done. interesting though. will check that out.
Thanks for replying!
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@latte You are right, it is a very very diluted thyroid supp.
I don't think its unrelated or nocebo, because I was looking forward to taking it, and one of the reactions was ears ringing in the morning — and I've never had that happen before, definitely a strange new symptom.
But i see where you're coming from. Thanks. thinking of just stopping everything for a while and coming back to proper NDT dosing in a while
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@wagner Way too high indeed. Wonder if prolactin rising itself is a cause for concern, or if prolactin rises because other related stress pathways and underlying issues cause it to rise
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@Mulloch94 Doing a weekly serving of 100g liver. I've had a Vit D deficiency for a long while, and only recently started supplementing with 5000 IU occasionally at random times. Vit E whenever PUFA is in the horizon
Thanks for the perspective. What I don't look forward to is the adaptation phase of taking thyroid. I seem to think to myself that I cannot afford to take a while with subpar mental and physical performance (work, creative output) in this adaptation phase to thyroid, since I'm taking on important pursuits at work right now
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@Buckian I have been seeing similar things as well.
Cholesterol was closer to 200 6 months ago (2.1 TSH era) back when red fatty meat everyday
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@BroJonas This makes a lot of sense. Thanks, will try and share back.
My real concern/thoughts are around what else needs to be carefully accounted for during this NDT supplementation phase. Magnesium? nutrient deficiencies? prog? can't get a doc currently so just relying on forums and the broda barnes work
