Anabology Honey Diet & Protein Restriction
-
@Serotoninskeptic said in Anabology Honey Diet & Protein Restriction:
Im interested in trying this out but wondering your takes on it.
Saw this a few months back and decided to try a version of it.
My thought is that it requires too much consumption. It may be better to cycle between days with night-time protein and days with morning protein/fat. Granted I don't make time for elaborate breakfast and usually have coffee / fruit anyways. But, given two weekend days and five workdays, I think most people could see this as a format that could be cyclical.
I had coffee/sugar/milk, dates, mandarin oranges in the morning; cheese, occasional bread, Coke, apples for lunch; potatoes/meatloaf and/or milk for dinner. It "works" pretty well.
However, I think my blood sugar was a little too high a few times. I also think it is hacking into the metabolism sort of like cold air intake on an engine...basically just throwing fuel on a fire. I think steady is what's sustainable. I'm not mistaking steady for pufa-ridden, inflamed, depressed metabolism either because that is not good "steady."
In other words I probably have slower metabolism in general though I've been trying to eat low-pufa Peaty stuff for the last few years. I think I read somewhere that more glucose and sugar means you need to have more nutrients available to be absorbed. So it seems natural that it's better to do some like 70/30 carb to fat or carb to protein in meals too.
-
@Serotoninskeptic I've been running this for the past few weeks and really been feeling the positive effects of protein restriction. I think it's important to note that eating only glucose/fructose upregulates FGF21 expression via isoleucine restriction, and such high serum fructose reduces phosphate levels by 30-50% according to this study.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11036473/
so getting super high dietary calcium as many peaters recommend is probably less necessary.an unexpected result was that I find myself urinating much less, and when I do, I have very little foaming, which would probably be expected when consuming low protein. I will admit that the fasting portion of the diet is pretty brutal, especially coming from drinking milk by the quart, but i think you'd get the same antiinflammation and metabolism-boosting effects, just without the weight loss omitting it.
It's also notable that my nasal passages are much less swollen, for my whole life I've only been able to breathe through one nostril at a time but now I can breathe through both almost all day, but with my last meal, they swell up again.
you should try it out and see for yourself!
-
@samson said in Anabology Honey Diet & Protein Restriction:
an unexpected result was that I find myself urinating much less, and when I do, I have very little foaming, which would probably be expected when consuming low protein. I will admit that the fasting portion of the diet is pretty brutal, especially coming from drinking milk by the quart, but i think you'd get the same anti-inflammation and metabolism-boosting effects, just without the weight loss omitting it.
I noticed slightly more frequent urination, but I was plenty hydrated. I second your comment on clear breathing - it just seems to go with getting a big dose of energy from the fruits and sugar.
-
Well if you read the original thread, he did get a metabolism increase from cypro + BCAA + tyrosine (no gelatin or goat milk)
So, my claim here is not that BCAA is necessarily metabolism boosting (though @haidut has evidence they increase maximum lifespan) but that it’s not metabolism hindering, which I thought is a refutation to @anabology ’s point.
-
@jamezb46 not sure where anabology got to isoleucine specifically actually. this study about fgf21 says that they were able to replicate the metabolism-boosting effect of restricting a myriad of individual amino acids.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8761941/ -
@samson I also wonder if it’s not wiser to follow some widely established dietary principles rather than hyper focusing on FGF 21.
I also wonder whether FGF 21 is up-regulated when protein (or whatever the body uses as a proxy thereof, perhaps isoleucine) is scarce in the diet because the body is trying to get the organism to eat more to satisfy its needs for isoleucine.
I think we can therefore try to distinguish between permissive increases in metabolism and the body not permitting the metabolism to decrease.
The former would be an increase in metabolism because the body senses that it can “afford” to do so because of a plenitude of resources and a feeling of safety or dominance.
The latter would be when the body recognizes some kind of danger, necessity, or need, the response to which must be an increased metabolism.
For example, good sleep, caloric surplus, warm temperatures, would all create permissive increases in metabolism.
Whereas danger (increased adrenaline) would cause the body to not let the metabolic rate drop because of some need it thinks it must fulfill.
When it comes to restricting isoleucine, I’m inclined to say that the body increases the metabolic rate in an effort to eat more isoleucine-poor food (the food you have been eating) in order to get enough protein.
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
-
@jamezb46 seems plausible from an evolution standpoint, but not necessarily bad right? just because there's an adaptive response doesn't make it harmful unless proven otherwise.
I do think there are lots of factors for why a healthy human would only eat fruit for large swaths of the day, and gorge on fat and meat at night, if that's the paradigm we're thinking in, however.
also, it's not like you are totally deprived of amino acids during the sugar phase, transamination and amination both synthesize amino acids from keto acids in fruit, with the added benefit of lowering serum ammonia levels through (berries, citrus, pineapples all have precursors to α-ketoglutarate, which is bound to NH3 thus reducing amino levels)
I lift pretty religiously and haven't seen any reduction in strength, or slowing of progress for that matter, despite my weight dropping, so no catabolic action from protein fasting. pretty cool to be able to recomp as an intermediate actually
-
Interesting. So your numbers in the gym stayed the same? I wonder if you could actually get stronger on such a diet? Perhaps adding in some AAS (oral, mild) would help to answer the question as to whether with AAS you need more or less protein to build muscle.
I think that the idea we ate meat later in the day and fruit earlier is also plausible for a number of reasons. One, fruit would have been easier to find to start the day (literally just hangs there lol).
Two, animals humans like to hunt like deer and others are more active later in the day.
Three, if we got a kill, we would have to travel back to camp to cook it and share it with others. Or, if we were traveling, we would probably have waited until we stopped for the night to eat it.
I also agree that just because something is adaptive, that doesn’t mean it should be avoided. For example, caffeine is probably there as a natural fungicide and a toxin to insects or whatever else wants to eat the part of the plant that contains it. There’s some discussion about how the plant might use caffeine to give bugs an “energy boost” but I think that’s the wrong way of thinking about it. It’s probably for self-defense and that’s all from the plants POV.
But obviously caffeine has known benefits.
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
-
@jamezb46 Yeah evolutionarily this makes sense. For example, if you were a mammal living in a tropical area, and your diet was mainly fruits, you still need to meet a certain protein requirement, despite the fruits being relatively protein deficient.
An animal eating a protein deficient food source would need to eat more food to get sufficient protein. I think the metabolism responds to this -- if your body perceives protein insufficiency, it tells you "okay eat more food bro" and burns off the excess energy. If you have sufficient (or above) protein, this effect completely disappears because the body is like "okay we're good bro stop eating. If its a good idea to hack your body into this high energy expending state i’m unsure but it definitely works.
-
Well, whether it’s a good idea depends heavily on whether relatively constant protein consumption throughout the day has enough benefits that restricting protein intake outside a specific time window does more harm than good.
One of the best ways to increase metabolic rate is by building muscle. And I don’t know of any bodybuilders who have countenanced the idea of not eating protein at breakfast and lunch.
-
@jamezb46 I think it can work for muscle building purposes if you train in the afternoon around dinner. Or including small amounts of gelatin, or milk, or BCAA as long as its low fat during the day like 10-20g i’ve seen some people including skim milk and still having good results. Even fruit can probably supply enough protein during the day if its really a concern. A gallon of OJ has 32g protein for example. Or just having a big caloric surplus dinner and meeting protein requirements then.
-
@Serotoninskeptic I could be crazy, but I wonder if the benefit is just related to the Randle Cycle? Like think about it, the diet is zero fat til dinner. Maybe just staying in carb burning mode, and not lypolisis all day is the key vs protein fasting. I know there’s a lot of research around protein restriction and its health benefits, but as far as weight loss is concerned, eating predominantly carbs, and fasting from fat all day and not alternating back and forth between lypolisis and oxidative phosphorylation is probably more efficient?
-
Well, it's more complicated than that. For one, the benefits of protein restriction are probably due to decreased methionine, cysteine, and tryptophan, or more specifically, poor ratios of Glycine/Cysteine, and Tyrosine,Phenylalanine/Tryptophan.
Also, the randle cycle is not as simple as fat vs carbs. Certain fats are more permissive of glucose oxidation than others. For example, Palmitic acid encourages glucose oxidation.
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
-
@jamezb46 Yeah my numbers have stayed the same, some lifts even getting a little stronger, but we'll see how long that lasts as I continue to drop weight. weighted dips and chin-ups have improved, but I'd attribute that to just getting lighter and not losing muscle. I hit a pr on squats last time I went, so maybe I'm eeking out some gains as well.
started at 195 at around 18% BF, gonna drop 10 lbs and see what I'm looking like then start to bulk again, though trying to put on any significant amount of weight is pretty difficult while maintaining good mental clarity and energy in my experience, protein fasting just make me feel so sharp and energized.
another plus I see with the honey diet is that glycogen stores aren't depleted, so your muscles don't look deflated and you don't get that illusory initial drop in water weight like typically caloric deficit diets.
I've made some coconut oil ice cream so I'll probably just slam that and see where it gets me when the time comes
-
@jamezb46 Good point on the Randle cycle, often gets misconstrued and to my knowledge, it still isn't fully understood.
Certainly a major benefit is lower levels of inflammatory amino acids, I found that when I eat protein and fat at the end of my day, if I drink some gelatinous broth first, and then have some eggs, cheese, milk, etc my breathing is much clearer and I feel more relaxed, whereas if I go right to eggs and cheese and have broth after, I get clogged up. seems like clear sinuses, for me, are a pretty good proxy for inflammation.
-
Would it not be easier and better to eat all the protein for breakfast, and then eat carbs the rest of the day? I squat 200 KGs for reps on a diet of 80-120 Grams of protein.
I remember some autist writing on twitter on the positive correlation between diabetes rates and how late they ate dinner in different shithole countries.
-
@Norwegian-Mugabe It wouldnt work the same for FGF21 induction because protein takes like 12 hours before its fully utilized. After eating only sugar your blood glucose will go back to baseline very fast like within 2 hours.
-
@Serotoninskeptic Are there any special reasons for why honey should be the main carb source?
Do you do oil pulling or any other acitivity to protect your teeth?
How much calorie deficit are you aiming for, and how many times do you eat in the day?
-
@Norwegian-Mugabe I'll swish some water in my mouth after my last meal/sugary drink at 3, but my tongue has felt actually much cleaner doing the honey diet rather than eating mixed macros throughout the day.
a diet that's so low in phosphorus is pretty protective of teeth, and I get all the fatty vitamins essential for good dental health at night with protein.
I basically just eat small meals all day until 3, a squirt of honey right when i wake up, 450g blueberries and some black coffee with sugar, a glass of orange juice, an energy drink, more honey, etc. usually ends up being around 1500-2k cals worth of sugar, ~3500 cals by the end of the day. I don't think there's anything special about honey besides being an easy source of calories.
haven't even thought about doing a "calorie deficit" as the fat loss has been so effortless, I eat to complete satiety outside of the 3-7 fasting window.
that's my experience but I'd love to hear about @Serotoninskeptic experience as well, if it's any different to mine.
-
@samson Yeah sounds very similar to my experience.And as far as dental health goes starch and phosphate-rich proteins seem to be much worse for my teeth than sugar.
