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Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?

Literature Review
adamantane androsterone dht steroids bodybuilding
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  • J
    jamezb46 @Mauritio
    last edited by Mar 24, 2025, 8:29 PM

    @Mauritio

    Patrick arnold is still selling 11-KT.

    Pretty expensive, but here it is

    https://prototypenutrition.com/collections/all-products/products/11-kt-spray-original-formula

    In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

    A M 2 Replies Last reply Mar 24, 2025, 8:39 PM Reply Quote 0
    • A
      alfredoolivas @jamezb46
      last edited by Mar 24, 2025, 8:39 PM

      @jamezb46 Really good doses, 250mg of 11-KT per dose, using alcohol based solvents! It's a massive bottle and a single dose is 50 sprays, it isn't clear how many doses are in a bottle though.

      J 1 Reply Last reply Mar 24, 2025, 10:55 PM Reply Quote 0
      • M
        Mauritio @jamezb46
        last edited by Mauritio Mar 24, 2025, 8:57 PM Mar 24, 2025, 8:44 PM

        @jamezb46
        Iron legion also sell it for much less.
        https://iron-legion.com/products/xi-kt

        "Conversely, 11-KT did not activate estrogen receptor-mediated transactivation in aromatase-expressed MCF-7 cells, whereas testosterone did following conversion to estrogen. 11-KT did not affect the estrogen/estrogen receptor -mediated cell proliferation of MCF-7 cells. Furthermore, it significantly inhibited cell proliferation when androgen receptor was transfected into MCF-7 cells."
        https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/101/10/3582/2764896#:~:text=Conversely%2C 11-KT did,into MCF-7 cells.

        It also seems to be able to fill in for testosterone functionally. At least it does so when you chemically castrate men.
        https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33974560/

        1000013729.png

        Dare to think.

        My X:
        x.com/Metabolicmonstr

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • J
          jamezb46 @alfredoolivas
          last edited by Mar 24, 2025, 10:55 PM

          @alfredoolivas 7.2 grams 11KT per bottle, 29 doses per bottle

          In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • M
            Mauritio
            last edited by Mar 25, 2025, 4:22 PM

            What do you guys think of laxogenin?

            Its very similar to diosgenin, which increases DHT and DHEA.
            And its available for purchase.

            https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9151512/

            Dare to think.

            My X:
            x.com/Metabolicmonstr

            J C 2 Replies Last reply Mar 25, 2025, 11:08 PM Reply Quote 0
            • J
              jamezb46 @Mauritio
              last edited by Mar 25, 2025, 11:08 PM

              @Mauritio

              The paper you linked refers to the synthetic 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin.

              That compound is different from the naturally occurring laxogenin, which is used in Chinese medicine.

              In fact, the FDA has declared the sale of 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin (5AHL) in supplements to be illegal:
              (https://www.usada.org/spirit-of-sport/illegal-ingredient-5-alpha-hydroxy-laxogenin-supplements/g)

              5AHL is thought to be synthesized from diosgenin, so perhaps that is where you're getting the association.

              Now, although the study you linked was about the synthetic derivative, one thing did catch my eye about the structure of laxogenin.

              Laxogenin

              images.png

              6-OXO

              imgsrv.png

              Notice how both compounds have a ketone group on position 6. The latter (6-OXO) is known to be an effective aromatase inhibitor and significantly increased the concentration of T and DHT when given in doses of 300 or 600 mg/day to men.

              https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2100070/

              The 6-OXO is a suicidal AI, and it's obvious that the 3 unsaturations in the A-ring allow it to have that property.

              It is possible that Laxogenin might also function as an AI if somehow the necessary double bonds were introduced when it gets metabolized. I doubt that can happen though.

              It is also possible that laxogenin also has its own anabolic or androgenic activity independent of aromatase inhibition.

              In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

              M 1 Reply Last reply Mar 26, 2025, 11:50 AM Reply Quote 0
              • M
                Mauritio @jamezb46
                last edited by Mar 26, 2025, 11:50 AM

                @jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:

                The paper you linked refers to the synthetic 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin.

                Yes, that's what most people are referring to when they mention laxogenin

                @jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:

                In fact, the FDA has declared the sale of 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin (5AHL) in supplements to be illegal:

                In Europe it's widely available. Just found one for 40€ . It just seems hit or miss if there's actually laxogenin in there .

                @jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:

                It is possible that Laxogenin might also function as an AI if somehow the necessary double bonds were introduced when it gets metabolized. I doubt that can happen though.

                Im just going to try it out. Some people notice nothing , some say it's great.

                Dare to think.

                My X:
                x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                J A 2 Replies Last reply Mar 26, 2025, 1:51 PM Reply Quote 0
                • J
                  jamezb46 @Mauritio
                  last edited by Mar 26, 2025, 1:51 PM

                  @Mauritio

                  Any reason to go with 5AHL over Tribulus Terrestris?

                  In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

                  M 1 Reply Last reply Mar 26, 2025, 4:28 PM Reply Quote 0
                  • A
                    alfredoolivas @Mauritio
                    last edited by Mar 26, 2025, 1:57 PM

                    @Mauritio I believe the benefits might come from simply consuming high quantities of a fully saturated lipophilic compound, and its effects on the lipophilicty of the cell membrane.

                    If you are consuming hundreds of milligrams of this fully saturated lipohiloc molecule, there is a likely hood that it will have an affinity to the phospholipid bilayer and its presence will make it more lipophilic.

                    More lipophilic cell membranes increase the affinity and downstream conversion of steroids, increasing the 5-AR pool of steroids within the cell.

                    Me and @jamezb46 came up with some compelling studies to show that increasing lipophilicity of the cell increases uptake of steroids and their metabolism, and caffeine can do this in humans, as shown by caffeine increasing the concentration of anavar by 20x, increasing its half life & metabolism. Anecdotally, after drinking 7 tea spoons of instant coffee mixed with coffees throughout the day, I have noticeably seen my muscles swell and look bigger as if I am on double the dose of testosterone.

                    https://bioenergetic.forum/post/40797

                    J 1 Reply Last reply Mar 26, 2025, 9:57 PM Reply Quote 0
                    • M
                      Mauritio @jamezb46
                      last edited by Mar 26, 2025, 4:28 PM

                      @jamezb46 For me? I've tried tribulus and didn't like it.

                      Dare to think.

                      My X:
                      x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • M
                        Mauritio
                        last edited by Mar 26, 2025, 5:06 PM

                        I thought it was a slightly unsaturated molecule ...

                        Nice theory. But couldn't all of this be explained by caffeine increasing liver health, leading to faster(first pass)metabolism ?

                        Dare to think.

                        My X:
                        x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                        A 1 Reply Last reply Mar 26, 2025, 6:59 PM Reply Quote 0
                        • A
                          alfredoolivas @Mauritio
                          last edited by alfredoolivas Mar 26, 2025, 7:02 PM Mar 26, 2025, 6:59 PM

                          @Mauritio Liver health takes a while to improve right? Furthermore, this involved a single administration of a normal dose of caffeine to a regular caffeine consumer. Any potential improvements in liver health would have already occurred due to the subject’s habitual caffeine consumption. However, these effects did not manifest in the absence of caffeine.

                          It's saturated, has a bit of a mental structure.
                          abaaad30-7013-4cdf-a7dc-ec6da976080a-image.png

                          J 2 Replies Last reply Mar 26, 2025, 10:00 PM Reply Quote 0
                          • J
                            jamezb46 @alfredoolivas
                            last edited by Mar 26, 2025, 9:57 PM

                            @alfredoolivas

                            I think that the lipophilic derivative of caffeine, pentoxifylline should be even better in that regard than caffeine.

                            Pentoxifylline

                            pentoxifylline.png

                            Caffeine

                            caffeine.jpg

                            In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • J
                              jamezb46 @alfredoolivas
                              last edited by Mar 26, 2025, 10:00 PM

                              @alfredoolivas Its structure is similar to Brassinosteroids. Those are the active ingredients in "pine pollen" supplements.

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassinosteroid

                              Brassinosteroids.png

                              In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • J
                                jamezb46 @alfredoolivas
                                last edited by Mar 26, 2025, 10:05 PM

                                @alfredoolivas

                                https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31381816/

                                Derivatives of brassinosteroids are known to be anti-estrogenic (studied for breast cancer)

                                In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

                                M 1 Reply Last reply Mar 27, 2025, 7:11 AM Reply Quote 0
                                • M
                                  Mauritio @jamezb46
                                  last edited by Mar 27, 2025, 7:11 AM

                                  @jamezb46
                                  Well, 5a hydroxy laxogenin and laxogenin are brassinosteroids, so that makes them even more interesting with androgenic, and potential anti-estrogenic effects. They're basically plant anabolic steroids, leading to plant growth .

                                  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25311045/

                                  Dare to think.

                                  My X:
                                  x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • M
                                    Mauritio
                                    last edited by Mauritio Mar 27, 2025, 7:39 AM Mar 27, 2025, 7:14 AM

                                    "Brassinosteroids are plant-derived polyhydroxylated derivatives of 5a-cholestane, structurally similar to cholesterol-derived animal steroid hormones and insect ecdysteroids, with no known function in mammals. 28-Homobrassinolide (HB), a steroidal lactone with potent plant growth-promoting property, stimulated protein synthesis and inhibited protein degradation in L6 rat skeletal muscle cells..."
                                    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3177571/

                                    This brassinosteroid increases steroidogenic enzymes and testosterone.
                                    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23012313/

                                    Dare to think.

                                    My X:
                                    x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • M
                                      Mauritio
                                      last edited by Mauritio Mar 27, 2025, 8:34 AM Mar 27, 2025, 7:34 AM

                                      5a hydroxy laxogenin and related compounds might have anti cancer effects.
                                      Further corroborating its non-estrogenicity/anti-estrogenic effects.

                                      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0968089612001198

                                      I found this Dutch company that sells 5a hydroxy laxogenin powder. 5g just 15€.
                                      They also carry PRL-5-53, which I had on my "maybe" list for a quite a while.
                                      https://dutchsarms.nl/de/products/laxogenin-poeder

                                      Dare to think.

                                      My X:
                                      x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • T
                                        T-3 @alfredoolivas
                                        last edited by T-3 Mar 27, 2025, 10:09 AM Mar 27, 2025, 10:03 AM

                                        @alfredoolivas and @jamezb46: Thanks for confirming that OP's premise re "torching the liver" isn't a compelling motivation for what he suggests--separate from the other relevant critiques of the OP's conjecture and going down rabbit holes to chase 10-year-old conjectures by Haidut.

                                        I second what @alfredoolivas wrote advocating for people bringing more of their own thinking to the forum, their own evidence, and their own experiences, rather than languishing in an echo-chamber around a single guru. You and others on this thread are exemplary contributors of new ideas and well-argued skepticism. We should indeed be challenging each other's thinking to learn and improve, while encouraging each other to continue posting original conjectures. And quickly tearing down bad ones re-focuses attention on generating and evaluating new ones. I like what happened in this thread and wish OP would like it, too--collaborative jousting in a competitive idea space.

                                        @Mauritio : Duly noted that there's a mechanism and some evidence that oral androsterone is likely beneficial for the liver.

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • C
                                          CrumblingCookie @Mauritio
                                          last edited by Mar 27, 2025, 10:25 AM

                                          @Mauritio said:

                                          What do you guys think of laxogenin?

                                          Im just going to try it out. Some people notice nothing , some say it's great.

                                          I found this Dutch company that sells 5a hydroxy laxogenin powder. 5g just 15€.

                                          What dose are you going to trial? Intuitively I would assume it to require at least +-1g pd as the linked study showed effects starting at 25-50µg/mL in vitro. I'm curious about what dose-finding calculations you're applying.

                                          M 1 Reply Last reply Mar 27, 2025, 10:58 AM Reply Quote 0
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