Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?
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Putting aside the proposal to insert adamantane at 3α, what does everyone think of @davedavidson's claim that oral androsterone (or DHT) is "torching the liver"?
Respecting that people's responses to androsterone seem to vary markedly, I share @davedavidson's appreciation for androsterone and DHT's psychological effects.
I've seen the hepatoxicity concerns raised numerous times about oral androsterone on RPF/LTF (e.g. on the androsterone mega thread). What does everyone think about oral androsterone at 4 to 8 drops daily? Would that be "torching the liver"?
Have we seen studies documenting such problems at these (or higher) doses?
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@jamezb46 you are drilling into him a bit too hard haha. He just innocently suggested something impossible haha
@davedavidson as James said ketones can’t get esterfied. Only hydroxyl (OH) groups can be esterfied.
Since most androgenic steroids have a ketone group at position 3, they can’t be esterfied at position 3. For example, androstenedione that has no hydroxyl group and only ketone groups at position 3 & 17 cannot be esterfied.
However @davedavidson, Androsterone, DHEA and pregnenolone have a hydroxyl group at position 3, so there can be an ester at position 3 of these steroids. Pregnenolone and DHEA acetate have the ester at these positions.
But in the end as James said… we are absolutely spoiled with choice for steroids, that are pure and dirt cheap and they work profoundly well.
We already have androgenic, anti estrogenic, progestogenic, anti mineralocorticoid, GABAergic and anti cortisol steroids all you can buy with ease online for a low price.
So just take your test and shut up:)
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@T-3 that’s BS. Only steroids with added functional groups to the outside of the steroid skeleton “scorch” the liver, and they do so to so many varying degrees.
Androsterone, DHT, testosterone, have no functional groups artificially added to the outside skeleton of the steroid, and are perfectly safe for the liver. Doses of 600mg testosterone undecanoate orally daily (70% bioavailability) have been shown to have no effect on the liver in a clinical trial. Injected testosterone has shown to cure liver disease.
However, when you add functional groups, they tend to increase liver enzymes. For example, 2a-Methy DHT is DHT with a methyl group added to it and it’s known to slightly increase liver enzymes whereas DHT isn’t.
However certain functional groups in certain positions have different levels of harshness on the liver.
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Generally, the more orally bioavailable a steroid is, the more hepatotoxic it is.
The hepatotoxicity is a measure of how resistant the steroid is to the liver’s attempts to metabolize it.
Why does anyone think that 4-8mg of androsterone is hepatotoxic? What’s stopping the liver from attaching a sulfate group to it to make androsterone sulfate?
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Oof okay, DHT’s 3-keto can’t be esterified without reducing it, and thatd just tank its activity, I kno im retarded but the responses here are just dogmatic lecturing “take your test and shut up.” It’s condescending and kills any real discussion. I’m not trying to just follow the same old path everyone’s been on since the 50s.where’s the progress?? if you’re not open to exploring new ideas why even engage??
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@davedavidson it was a joke, sorry I thought the “:)”made it obvious.
You aren’t retarded at all, I didn’t paint you out to seem that way. I just thought you were a little to optimistic about a steroid that was popularised by Haidut, the master of conjecture.
It's quite personal to me because I too went down the rabbit hole of listening to Haidut's conjecture... buying all the overpriced Idea Labs products, applying hundreds of milligrams of DHT and pregnenolone on my body to create the optimal "anti-catabolic steroid", listening to his weight loss advice etc... it left me with a massive hole in my wallet and fatter.
This is why I ravantly encourage people to present their own evidence, and not follow what Haidut said 10 years ago on a forum or what the X echo chamber is saying, as it is a lot of the time they are spreading info that is 100% conjecture and is a waste of time and resources. Being serious.
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I thinks it's an interesting thought. But I don't really see the upside here. It mainly appeals to people because it's mysterious and hard to obtain etc.
I get it... the first email I send Ray was about an obscure progesterone/DHT mix of a designer steroid , which I'm surprised he even replied to
But if you want DHT with a longer half life you can use 11ketoDHT.I still think 11ketoT is an interesting option on paper. IIRC I saw a study suggesting it doesn't even aromatize.
Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
@T-3 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:
I've seen the hepatoxicity concerns raised numerous times about oral androsterone on RPF/LTF (e.g. on the androsterone mega thread). What does everyone think about oral androsterone at 4 to 8 drops daily? Would that be "torching the liver"?
Have you looked for studies on that ?
Androsterone is an FXR agonist, which are used to treat liver disease. So if anything it should help the liver.
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@Mauritio 11-keto steroids are extremley interesting - 11-keto testosterone can get reduced back into 11-hydroxybeta-testosterone, which is very similar structurally to cortisol - it has the same double bond on position 3-4, the 3 keto group and the 11 hydroxl group.
11 keto progesterone looks insane; it turns back into 11-hydroxybeta progesterone which is basically corticosterone without the OH at the top.
11 betahydroxy progesterone
corticosterone.This structural similarity will make it into an insane anti-glucocorticoid. Progesterone binds to the GR receptor with around 8% the binding affinity as cortisol.
it is known that the addition of a hydroxyl group at position 11, increases binding to the GR receptor. Fluoxymesterone has a hydroxyl group at position 11, and it binds to the GR stronger than testosterone.
It is structurally similar to dexamethesone
fluoxymesterone
dexamethesone
So 11 beta hydroxyprogesterone will probably be an even more strogner GR antagonist than progesterone is - 8% relative to cortisol is very high already.
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Patrick arnold is still selling 11-KT.
Pretty expensive, but here it is
https://prototypenutrition.com/collections/all-products/products/11-kt-spray-original-formula
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@jamezb46 Really good doses, 250mg of 11-KT per dose, using alcohol based solvents! It's a massive bottle and a single dose is 50 sprays, it isn't clear how many doses are in a bottle though.
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@jamezb46
Iron legion also sell it for much less.
https://iron-legion.com/products/xi-kt"Conversely, 11-KT did not activate estrogen receptor-mediated transactivation in aromatase-expressed MCF-7 cells, whereas testosterone did following conversion to estrogen. 11-KT did not affect the estrogen/estrogen receptor -mediated cell proliferation of MCF-7 cells. Furthermore, it significantly inhibited cell proliferation when androgen receptor was transfected into MCF-7 cells."
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/101/10/3582/2764896#:~:text=Conversely%2C 11-KT did,into MCF-7 cells.It also seems to be able to fill in for testosterone functionally. At least it does so when you chemically castrate men.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33974560/
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@alfredoolivas 7.2 grams 11KT per bottle, 29 doses per bottle
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What do you guys think of laxogenin?
Its very similar to diosgenin, which increases DHT and DHEA.
And its available for purchase.Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
The paper you linked refers to the synthetic 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin.
That compound is different from the naturally occurring laxogenin, which is used in Chinese medicine.
In fact, the FDA has declared the sale of 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin (5AHL) in supplements to be illegal:
(https://www.usada.org/spirit-of-sport/illegal-ingredient-5-alpha-hydroxy-laxogenin-supplements/g)5AHL is thought to be synthesized from diosgenin, so perhaps that is where you're getting the association.
Now, although the study you linked was about the synthetic derivative, one thing did catch my eye about the structure of laxogenin.
Laxogenin
6-OXO
Notice how both compounds have a ketone group on position 6. The latter (6-OXO) is known to be an effective aromatase inhibitor and significantly increased the concentration of T and DHT when given in doses of 300 or 600 mg/day to men.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2100070/
The 6-OXO is a suicidal AI, and it's obvious that the 3 unsaturations in the A-ring allow it to have that property.
It is possible that Laxogenin might also function as an AI if somehow the necessary double bonds were introduced when it gets metabolized. I doubt that can happen though.
It is also possible that laxogenin also has its own anabolic or androgenic activity independent of aromatase inhibition.
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@jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:
The paper you linked refers to the synthetic 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin.
Yes, that's what most people are referring to when they mention laxogenin
@jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:
In fact, the FDA has declared the sale of 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin (5AHL) in supplements to be illegal:
In Europe it's widely available. Just found one for 40€ . It just seems hit or miss if there's actually laxogenin in there .
@jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:
It is possible that Laxogenin might also function as an AI if somehow the necessary double bonds were introduced when it gets metabolized. I doubt that can happen though.
Im just going to try it out. Some people notice nothing , some say it's great.
Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
Any reason to go with 5AHL over Tribulus Terrestris?
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@Mauritio I believe the benefits might come from simply consuming high quantities of a fully saturated lipophilic compound, and its effects on the lipophilicty of the cell membrane.
If you are consuming hundreds of milligrams of this fully saturated lipohiloc molecule, there is a likely hood that it will have an affinity to the phospholipid bilayer and its presence will make it more lipophilic.
More lipophilic cell membranes increase the affinity and downstream conversion of steroids, increasing the 5-AR pool of steroids within the cell.
Me and @jamezb46 came up with some compelling studies to show that increasing lipophilicity of the cell increases uptake of steroids and their metabolism, and caffeine can do this in humans, as shown by caffeine increasing the concentration of anavar by 20x, increasing its half life & metabolism. Anecdotally, after drinking 7 tea spoons of instant coffee mixed with coffees throughout the day, I have noticeably seen my muscles swell and look bigger as if I am on double the dose of testosterone.
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@jamezb46 For me? I've tried tribulus and didn't like it.
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I thought it was a slightly unsaturated molecule ...
Nice theory. But couldn't all of this be explained by caffeine increasing liver health, leading to faster(first pass)metabolism ?
Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr
