11KT - 11-keto-Testosterone
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Note that Peat didn't like keto group steroid variants in general maybe because the keto group's effects aren't as fully studied, but so far, there doesn't appear to be anything notable about 11 keto DHT other than its longer half life, so it's likely that the other ketos are sinilar.
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@engineer I know from personal experience, back in 2012 7-Keto made hair fall out that never grew back.
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@bio3nergetic I had to look this up and 7 keto DHEA is just plain weird. It's not an agonist or antagonist of anything but it does have some interesting enzymatic action.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10348924/
"Many studies showed that DHEA and some of its derivatives are thermogenic and that their ability to induce thermogenesis increases in the following sequence: DHEA–7-𝛼-OH-DHEA–7-keto-DHEA–7 𝛽-OH-DHEA [10]. Their thermogenic properties are likely attributed to increased levels of thermogenic enzymes that shuttle substrate and electrons in and out of the mitochondria and, due to increased proton leak, across the mitochondrial inner membrane. Like thyroid hormone, 7-keto-DHEA increases the levels of mitochondrial sn-glycerol-3-phosphate dehydrogenase (mGPDH) and cytosolic malic enzyme, indicating that they enhance thermogenesis through similar mechanisms [11]. They use a metabolically inefficient pathway called glycerophosphate shuttle for electron transport that bypasses the NADH–ubiquinone sequence of the respiratory chain. The electron transport chain and the mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation coupled to it are disrupted [12, 13]. The energy released during the electron transfer is not sufficient to uphold the proton motive force across the inner mitochondrial membrane, lowering its membrane potential and dissipating the energy from the proton motive force as heat rather that producing ATP from ADP. To generate the previous proton motive force and the quantity of ATP, the amount of electron transfer must be increased and in consequence more substrate, more oxygen and more stored energy from the cells are consumed [14]. This supports the theory that 7-keto-DHEA promotes fat burning to gain energy by stimulating the fatty acyl CoA oxidase, which is the major enzyme in the oxidation of fatty acids [11]."
So, this suggests that enhancement of fatty acid oxidation is the underlying mechanism behind 7 keto's effects. If that is the case, then hair loss could indeed be a side effect due to hair follicles having strict energy requirements that FAO can't meet, like is seen with keto diets and obese people.
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@engineer Thanks. I think those main effects are fine, when 7-keto and other downstream metabolites are taken care of by the system, when in good health /metabolic status; controlled in other words. My earlier caution is precisely why Peat also didn't favor these metabolites much as supplemental. So I say to you guys, be careful.
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@engineer No I haven't ordered. I have some other things to try before. But it's definitely on my list.
Let us know how it goes!Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
@Mauritio Ordered! It should arrive in a few days.
What other things were you going to try out?
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@engineer I've ordered phytol, which also has androgenic properties.
And maybe vitex Agnus castus and tetrahydrocurcumin.Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
@Mauritio ok, I've now received the bottle.
First impressions:
- The measured dropper system is nice but different to Idealabs where it's by drop, while here it goes in 0.25mL increments.
- The smell is terrible, like hospital disinfectant bad. However, it seems to have a slight aroma of something good added.
- The liquid is clear and slightly thicker than the Idealabs ethanol equivalent. This makes it better when applying because it doesn't want to flow as much on the skin.
- I couldn't decide how much to use (it's $70 for a small bottle) so I started with 0.25mL on my inner elbow like I've done with Idealabs supplements in the past. If we believe the concentration then this should be 20mg.
- Due to the formula with tons of added ingredients (but with overall structure similar to the Idealabs version once again) it's possible the absorption is good enough to not leave visible crystals on the skin. I can't see any other than a slight shimmer even with a flashlight.
- I can't report any anabolic or androgenic effects yet because I only put it on a few minutes ago.
Now, the big question is whether it actually contains 11 keto T or not. Is there some way I could test it without spectroscopy like getting actual lab rats and trying it on them?
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@engineer said in 11KT - 11-keto-Testosterone:
Due to the formula with tons of added ingredients (but with overall structure similar to the Idealabs version once again) it's possible the absorption is good enough to not leave visible crystals on the skin. I can't see any other than a slight shimmer even with a flashlight.
great report.
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@engineer thanks for the update . Let us know how it goes.
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I'm now trying a simple 1mL a day with 0.5mL rubbed on each arm. If we're to believe the concentration of 85mg/mL then that should be 85mg a day, but let's say the actual absorbed amount is something low like 40mg. If 11kT is roughly equivalent to regular T then that's a pretty good amount. I'll try this until at at least Tuesday (4 days in total) and see what happens then because at that point there is a different, closely related hormone supplement I'm considering trying.
Note that from many other forum posts, it looks like others are often using 1.5mL daily. Maybe I should try that instead?
Also, here's something interesting. I also take 40mg of 6 keto p4 a day which costs $40/(360mg/40mg) = $4.44. 1.5mL of 11 keto T would be $70/(30/1.5) = $3.5. Maybe I could replace the 6 keto with this XI-KT stuff instead? It seems like it could actually be more effective if we assumed a worst case scenario of a 60mg T equivalence, roughly equivalent itself to 90mg of 6 keto p4.
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@engineer any noticeable effects?
Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
@Mauritio None yet since I only put on the 1mL 30 minutes ago but I will do an additional 0.5mL tonight and continue that for a few days.
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You know what, I'm going to go scorched earth and do 2mL to increase the probability of feeling something and it would match the cost of 40mg 6kp4 too.
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@engineer im surprised that you don't feel anything even at that dose, which is very high in peats world.
Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
@Mauritio about an hour later I did feel more energy, like it's thermogenic, and I was able to do judo rounds for a while even without drinking juice (I didn't bring enough). So, it seems like it should be similar to regular T if it also increases metabolism. But for something like muscle growth that will be hard to judge.
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Update: This morning I put 1mL around my collarbone as reported elsewhere as a good place. BIG mistake. My shirt seems to be absorbing a little bit, and it's not clear how much. As insurance against absorption I also put 0.5mL on my arms and will only use that location now.
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has anyone tried this?
i think the same company make it,
https://www.predatornutrition.com/prohormones/alpha-gainz/1-andro-td.html
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@wester130 This is actually the same as Idealabs Androsterone so whatever people report for that would apply to this too. In other words, a strong AI with mild androgenic effects that isn't anabolic.
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I was wondering how androgenic 11 keto T was compared to standard T, and this study summarized exactly that:
It's almost identical to T in potency.
"The high androgenic activity of the various metabolites (Table 1) as well as their relatively high concentrations in circulation was the reason why they have been the subject of much interest along with the classic androgens, especially testosterone. It has been observed that in control groups of healthy individuals the levels of 11-keto-testosterone can be double the levels of testosterone. Concentrations of almost all 11-oxygenated C19-steroids have been found to be up to three times higher in patients with adrenal hyperplasia due to 21-hydroxylase deficiency compared to controls (Table 2) (Turcu et al. 2016, Storbeck et al. 2019). In addition, girls were shown to have more than doubled levels of 11-keto-testosterone compared to testosterone throughout the period of adrenarche (Fig. 2)."
"When testosterone levels are followed for diagnostic or monitoring reasons, it seems reasonable to also measure levels of androgens of adrenal origin, especially 11-keto-testosterone and 11-keto-dihydrotestosterone (Dušková et al. 2018). This is particularly true in cases of enzyme disorders with androgenization (Turcu et al. 2016, Turcu et al. 2017, Storbeck et al. 2019). In congenital adrenal hyperplasia due to 21-hydroxylase deficiency, levels of 11-keto-testosterone are on average three-times higher than in controls, while in contrast low levels are expected in 11β-hydroxylase deficiencies, i.e. in CAH with hypertension. Following 11-keto-testosterone level can be useful in interpretation the significant androgenization of the skin and normal or only non-significantly increased testosterone level that occurs oft in the most common female endocrine disorder – polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) (O’Reily et al. 2017, Yoshida et al. 2018). No evidence of the 11β-hydroxylation of androstenedione has been found in granulosa cells from the ovaries of women with PCOS (Owen et al. 1982), though another study indicated that 11-keto-testosterone is produced in the gonads (Imamichi et al. 2016). Higher adrenal activity in women with PCOS has been repeatedly observed (Turcu and Auchus 2017), but the concentrations of 11-oxygenated C19-steroids cannot be regarded as a marker for this syndrome. In some milder cases of female androgenization, for instance idiopathic hirsutism, the determination of 11-keto-testosterone and 11-keto-dihydrotestosterone could also help explain the conflict between the intensity of clinical features and the levels of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8603739/
So, it appears as though 11 keto T may be present in significant amounts, maybe even more than regular T, but current testing doesn't detect it. This would be a bombshell explanation for why some people have comically low T in testing (Jeffrey Epstein) but don't exhibit the symptoms of low T.
