Experiments with transdermal hormones
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I wish I had a better answer, but honestly - IDK.
I've been using a combination of scrotal T cream and DMSO + Test. However, since the test I have is apparently Test Prop, I can't really compare that to the T base, and can't say what would be the most effective or beneficial.
I can definitely feel that this test has a much slower come-up, and doesn't provide as much of a kick as T base would. Using scrotally, I feel a mild kick, and then it fades away after half a day, so I need to reapply, typically 2-3x per day. (I use 1pump @ 18.75mg / pump )
The DMSO that I use on my thigh at night seems to last all day?? but I don't really feel anything dramatic, which is probably good. I'd have to get bloods to tell you if it was actually getting me to good levels, but I feel perfectly fine. It also absorbs quite poorly, and feels fatty for a while before it crystalizes.
I've just recently gotten some kefir grains and started making and drinking kefir. It seems to be helping my gut quite a bit. If that works out, then I would be able to get a much better idea of which test application method works best, since gut issues really mask a lot of the effects of androgens.
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@brightside Wow, yeah 9-14% is quite low. I figured it would be at least like 30%. Do you think trace amounts (say 3-5% in a mixed solution) would be beneficial to help keep the hormone from drying on the surface of skin? Or is there better ways to prevent that?
Thanks for your input about MCT oil. I was on the fence about it anyways, because when I tried using EVOO + ethanol it did not turn out well. They were really not miscible at all, and I was wondering it the same thing happened with MCT oil. I feel like the miscibility plays a very crucial role whether or not certain solvents & skin penetrants have synergy.
In terms of pure alpha-tocopherol, it's completely miscible with ethanol. And personally I think the two work way better than ethanol + propylene glycol. I can't say for sure how the a-tocopherol makes it better, but my guess is in the solubility. Just based on what I've observed in playing with DHT. For me, DHT seems less soluble than testosterone. So I can never quite get as much DHT per ml as I can T per ml.
With the tocopherol mixed into the ethanol, it dissolves much better and at higher concentrations when put into a hot bath. I noticed my glass mixer which I stir everything up in is pretty clean after I dump the contents. Usually, with the ethanol + PG solution, there's a whitish residue leftover after everything evaporates and dries. I assume this white residue is a little leftover hormone. This is NOT there with the ethanol + tocopherol mixture. So I assume the hormone completely dissolves. Lot of guessing without much confirmation, but this has been my experience.
Now, there is some cons here. One the one hand, adding the ethanol makes the tocopherol alot more "workable." It's more like a liquid than a sap, which is good. It can be drawn up in a dropper and readily applied to whatever area you wish. The downside is the vitamin E adds a considerable amount of delay to the total drying time. This is probably very good in terms of hormone absorption, I guess. But it's not so convenient if you're worried about wiping your arm on someone and dosing them accidentally.
I suppose you can put it somewhere other than your forearm (that's where I like dosing though). However there's also the chance your clothes could wipe it off. So I guess the best thing you can do in those scenarios is just wrap the application site in plastic for a few hours before taking it off.
The product I use is indeed PURE alpha-tocopherol (my product). No added oils or policosanols. It's very viscous when room temp, but when warmed and mixed with alcohol it's practically a liquid at that point.
I've actually tried the same thing with Progest-E and ethanol before, it works too, albeit slightly less capable. Seemed to take longer to fully dissolve, idk if the coconut triglycerides in the progest-e was interfering or not. I felt the effects the same though, just didn't like it. DHT + Progesterone is way too lethargic of a feeling for me.
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@brightside said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Santosh said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
I'm going to put an end to the dozens of messages I receive in my inbox on this forum : yes, ethanol + MCT oil + IPM has the best convenience and absorption profile of all transdermal methods, no DMSO is not ideal.
I use DMSO solutions when I want to elicit deep transcriptional changes, such as anchoring a long lasting androgenic state by megadosing DHT in DMSO for a few days.
???
Now it's the "best convenience and absorption profile of all transdermal methods"?
Why do you always talk with such pride? If you really wanted to put an end to the questions (or just be helpful) you would make a post about it, put it on your profile, or something of that sort.
Oh I see, this whole thing is about your ego.
You can't accept that I started making threads about my discoveries back in 2019, and you arrived LONG after. -
@brightside said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Mulloch94 said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@brightside Interesting. So MCT oil would be a viable co-solvent along with ethanol? I only ask because I've never used it. Tocopherol has been an excellent lipid-based compound and I haven't had the need to venture out much further than that. It also mixes with more volatile solvents like ethanol without an issue too. I've noticed a mixture of ethanol & tocopherol to be particularly useful in getting DHT it solvent quite easily, which I've always noticed can be tricky as it's slightly more temperamental than normal T base.
I personally don't see a reason to use it.
In order to boost penetration of fat soluble actives, you need to disrupt the lipid matrix. (unless relying on other mechanisms like denaturation of keratin proteins like DMSO) Fats like MCT and olive oil do do this, but only because they are a lipid that's not as structured as your lipid matrix. Pretty much any fat is less structured than your lipid matrix.
But, if you look at the stratum corneum lipid matrix, you can see that triglycerides are kind of massive in relation to everything else.
Why would you use more stable molecules, like MCT or other triglycerides instead of opting for smaller, more volatile and more disruptive lipids? (surfactants too) Simply switching from triglycerides to fatty acids drives up absorption dramatically, especially if the fatty acid is short or unsaturated.
Actually, I have yet to see a single study that says MCT oil is effective at increasing transdermal penetration of hormones.
Not only that, but MCT does not hold any hormone. MCT also sucks at mixing with ethanol. I did an experiment a year ago with a three dishes containing ethanol, ethanol+MCT, and ethanol+stearyl alcohol. The ethanol+MCT one crashed a few hours in (I was testing evaporation speed, so they were uncovered). I started out with roughly 80% Ethanol, 20% MCT, so that means the point at which it crashed was probably like 30% MCT, and 70% Ethanol? Something like that, but I never experimented to confirm.
To summarize, MCT isn't that miscible with ethanol, it's not a penetration enhancer, and it doesn't even hold any hormone. So then, why use it?
Moisturization is the only use I see.
Sorry for my little rant lol
It's interesting about the vitamin E. I wrongfully discounted it in the beginning, but clearly you and others are having good experiences with it. I'm kind of put off of the idea of using tocopherols since they are so thick. What kind of tocopherols are you using?
I'm asking because I'm concerned about the policosanols that are in the TocoVit type stuff. Since they're very long acids, they would probably add a structuring effect to the lipid matrix - something I don't want. Also, I'm curious if Vitamin E's effect comes from not necessarily by disruption, but by enhancing solubility of the hormone, like you mention.
Hmm, what do you think about this?
I would start questioning the quality of your ingredients.
I have pure 96% ethanol and pure MCT, they mix perfectly and stay mixed. -
@Santosh said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
Oh I see, this whole thing is about your ego.
You can't accept that I started making threads about my discoveries back in 2019, and you arrived LONG after.Imagine my ego being tied to the topic of transdermal hormones LOL
I care about accurate information, which you bring none.
Notice how in my RPF thread, anytime I bring up any argument you keep deflecting and changing the topic or going for an attack. You never actually say anything.
Case in point being your reply to me just now.
Why switch your opinion?
Where's the logic and reasoning?
Where's the proof for such a bold claim?
Where's literally anything of substance?Man, I don't really care. You can stroke your ego all you want, just don't do it in my thread. This thread is for accurate information and brainstorming.
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@brightside said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Santosh said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
Oh I see, this whole thing is about your ego.
You can't accept that I started making threads about my discoveries back in 2019, and you arrived LONG after.Imagine my ego being tied to the topic of transdermal hormones LOL
I care about accurate information, which you bring none.
Notice how in my RPF thread, anytime I bring up any argument you keep deflecting and changing the topic or going for an attack. You never actually say anything.
Case in point being your reply to me just now.
Why switch your opinion?
Where's the logic and reasoning?
Where's the proof for such a bold claim?
Where's literally anything of substance?Man, I don't really care. You can stroke your ego all you want, just don't do it in my thread. This thread is for accurate information and brainstorming.
"Your" thread doesn't exist if I don't bring up the topic of transdermal hormones in September 2019 both on the RPF and on MesoRx with my homemade formulas, both the DMSO one and the Ethanol/MCT one.
You piggy backed on my threads making small adjustments to the formula that bring nothing new to the absorption rate.
Switch my opinion to what ? I always had the same.
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tried 5 mg DHT in dsmo again
i was throwing 50 lb packages 6 feet in my wagie job today ahahahahaha
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@Santosh said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@brightside said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Santosh said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
Oh I see, this whole thing is about your ego.
You can't accept that I started making threads about my discoveries back in 2019, and you arrived LONG after.Imagine my ego being tied to the topic of transdermal hormones LOL
I care about accurate information, which you bring none.
Notice how in my RPF thread, anytime I bring up any argument you keep deflecting and changing the topic or going for an attack. You never actually say anything.
Case in point being your reply to me just now.
Why switch your opinion?
Where's the logic and reasoning?
Where's the proof for such a bold claim?
Where's literally anything of substance?Man, I don't really care. You can stroke your ego all you want, just don't do it in my thread. This thread is for accurate information and brainstorming.
"Your" thread doesn't exist if I don't bring up the topic of transdermal hormones in September 2019 both on the RPF and on MesoRx with my homemade formulas, both the DMSO one and the Ethanol/MCT one.
You piggy backed on my threads making small adjustments to the formula that bring nothing new to the absorption rate.
Switch my opinion to what ? I always had the same.
Would you like a cookie?
Actually, if anyone deserves to be called a pioneer, it’s this guy from 2002.
Genuine question, do you have a problem with reading comprehension?
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@brightside said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Santosh said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@brightside said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Santosh said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
Oh I see, this whole thing is about your ego.
You can't accept that I started making threads about my discoveries back in 2019, and you arrived LONG after.Imagine my ego being tied to the topic of transdermal hormones LOL
I care about accurate information, which you bring none.
Notice how in my RPF thread, anytime I bring up any argument you keep deflecting and changing the topic or going for an attack. You never actually say anything.
Case in point being your reply to me just now.
Why switch your opinion?
Where's the logic and reasoning?
Where's the proof for such a bold claim?
Where's literally anything of substance?Man, I don't really care. You can stroke your ego all you want, just don't do it in my thread. This thread is for accurate information and brainstorming.
"Your" thread doesn't exist if I don't bring up the topic of transdermal hormones in September 2019 both on the RPF and on MesoRx with my homemade formulas, both the DMSO one and the Ethanol/MCT one.
You piggy backed on my threads making small adjustments to the formula that bring nothing new to the absorption rate.
Switch my opinion to what ? I always had the same.
Would you like a cookie?
Actually, if anyone deserves to be called a pioneer, it’s this guy from 2002.
Genuine question, do you have a problem with reading comprehension?
What specific points make you think I do ?
Elaborate, don't just throw sarcastic questions especially while hypocritically prefacing they are genuine.
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@Santosh Have you ever experimented with tren base topically?
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@metabolicmilk What would be the purpose for trying something like Tren in the first place? It's a pretty destructive substance that has essentially no health benefits to it. The only people who need to consider Tren are people trying to get as big as possible, and even most of them know you're playing with fire when you take that shit. I mean, it's your body. I don't care if people smoke crystal meth, I'm just genuinely curious how we go from "fixing the metabolism" to trenbolognia sandwiches.
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@Mulloch94 said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@metabolicmilk What would be the purpose for trying something like Tren in the first place? It's a pretty destructive substance that has essentially no health benefits to it. The only people who need to consider Tren are people trying to get as big as possible, and even most of them know you're playing with fire when you take that shit. I mean, it's your body. I don't care if people smoke crystal meth, I'm just genuinely curious how we go from "fixing the metabolism" to trenbolognia sandwiches.
Well the thread name is "experiments with transdermal hormones". You could call tren a hormone.
Back when it was legal there was a US-based company that made a tren PH in both a non-methylated oral form and a transdermal. They had some fancy oral / transdermal tech for good absorption and to avoid needing the methyl group. Would be good to see if that tech could be rejuvenated and applied to other hormones. I had a friend who tried the oral tren PH and the only side effects were higher BP and getting huge.
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@Crypt-Keeper Sounds interesting, I guess your boy is a lucky one. To only get a higher BP and nothing else is a modest reaction to be honest. Some people literally go crazy on the shit. Aggression, anxiety, insomina, even lactation. It's the most neurotoxin steroid out of all the anabolics. Of course, one can't deny the physical results people get from it. I however don't understand this logic of a solo tren cycle. People far more knowledgeable than I on the steroid topic has said a tren cycle should always be accompanied with test. That is if you want your dick to continue to work, lol.
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@metabolicmilk said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Santosh Have you ever experimented with tren base topically?
Yes ! With tren base and Mtren in DMSO.
Completely cured my anhedonia and conditional fear I had developed abusing MK-677 in the past.
They are truly a miracle.I did 3 cycles of two weeks high dose of both.
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@Mulloch94 said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@metabolicmilk What would be the purpose for trying something like Tren in the first place? It's a pretty destructive substance that has essentially no health benefits to it. The only people who need to consider Tren are people trying to get as big as possible, and even most of them know you're playing with fire when you take that shit. I mean, it's your body. I don't care if people smoke crystal meth, I'm just genuinely curious how we go from "fixing the metabolism" to trenbolognia sandwiches.
Read my post above.
Stop thinking you may know anything about a hormone in particular just because you read forums. -
@Santosh Do you not think all the accounts people have of themselves (or family members) going crazy and literally threatening to harm themselves or others when taking tren isn't proof enough of it's toxic effects?
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@Mulloch94 said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Santosh Do you not think all the accounts people have of themselves (or family members) going crazy and literally threatening to harm themselves or others when taking tren isn't proof enough of it's toxic effects?
You know these people personnally ?
Anybody can write anything on the internet, including me.
That's why you need to try these things for yourself. -
@Santosh What's the significance of knowing them personally? Last time I checked there isn't some grand conspiracy against trenbolone. It's a substance that serves a particular purpose, and like anything, can have adverse reactions. Also 3 two week cycles isn't that much. I'm sure most people can get away with that before it becomes a huge issue. The typical tren cycle is like 10-12 weeks.
Also you're acting like the only knock on tren thus far is personal anecdotes on forums. We know from research it can elevate prolactin and downregulate serotonin autoreceptors (which isn't good). This supports some of the notable cardio effects users talk about on those forums, like tachycardia and, in extreme cases, heart failure.
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@Mulloch94 said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Santosh What's the significance of knowing them personally? Last time I checked there isn't some grand conspiracy against trenbolone. It's a substance that serves a particular purpose, and like anything, can have adverse reactions. Also 3 two week cycles isn't that much. I'm sure most people can get away with that before it becomes a huge issue. The typical tren cycle is like 10-12 weeks.
Also you're acting like the only knock on tren thus far is personal anecdotes on forums. We know from research it can elevate prolactin and downregulate serotonin autoreceptors (which isn't good). This supports some of the notable cardio effects users talk about on those forums, like tachycardia and, in extreme cases, heart failure.
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Completely reversing anhedonia only took 3x2 weeks.
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You agree that this length of time is not enough to give any harmful effect.
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Why do you keep preaching the harmfulness of these drugs then ?
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@Santosh What is the mechanism of tren fixing anhedonia? I might have to give this a try, although I think mine might be more related to low E2.
