Is being incel the "new normal" in 2024?
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@ThinPicking It wasn't too big a deal, or at least I've been good at dealing with stress from a young age and, strangely, aspects from the divorce are less painful aspects of my childhood to remember than others. I'm in good standing with both my parents. But the separation was hard on my dad financially and socially for a good 10 years, if that tells you the toll it took on him. He recovered from it though.
Regarding my own high score of not talking to women, that's mostly a circumstantial thing. Ever since my midteens I lost all contact with my female friends and just never made any to replace them. Since then I've never had any indepth conversation with them, although I don't mind interacting with them. Just never felt the desire to do so since I have more pressing matters to deal with in life, and I don't view having female friends as an end in of itself.
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@Tahodama said in Is being incel the "new normal" in 2024?:
I haven't interacted with a girl in 8 years so it's hard for me to think about them, at least outside of principle, abstract terms.
See but then who are you to comment on the system being rigged, on anything regarding social matters? The vast majority of (working) people interact with others all the time and have relationships and experiences outside of their parents'. By any reasonable metric you don't know what you're talking about. As unfortunate as I find you, please refrain from telling anyone how anything works, and focus on increasing your understanding by learning from those who actually exist as communicative and cooperative beings.
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Fair enough. And some joy for me in the first paragraph so thanks.
You're quite a brilliant writer.
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@ThinPicking The 'mission' thread?
I was busy and forgot. Also had a hard time making out what you meant. Don't take it the wrong way, but you have a slightly schizo edge to your posts. It makes it hard for me to even get what you're referring to.
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@CO3 I work a job where I have to socialize with people every 5 minutes and have found each and every one of them to be shallow and devoid of any worthwhile insight. I'm afraid my biases have been hardened, not softened, the more I experience.
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I would estimate the number is closer to 30%-40%. But it is growing every year and could already be 50%.
I read this whole thread and find it very interesting. A lot of good discussion and posts on both sides where some have mainstream understanding of "incel" vs others have deep knowledge of the subject and what it describes.
However it seems to lack one specific thing that Id like to include.
This is "lookism". It is attractiveness. This is the biggest and most important thing in incelism. We are ignoring all of the mainstream and political nonsense that is generally thought of when this topic is discussed.
Lets explain why there are so many men that can be considered incel, because IT IS NOT a political mindset. It is a description of a man that is unattractive to women. An incel is a man who cannot get sex from a woman without some form of bribery or transaction. Thats the real definition of an incel.
As said in other posts in this thread. Even if a man can get sex through prostitute, LTR/wife, etc, this does not stop them from being an incel.
There are many men either in denial or who are unaware of this, and this is called being blue pilled.
Luckily Ray Peat and the bioenergetic mindset is literarly the best solution imaginable. Health = Attractiveness. If you can get your health in full excellence through all the brilliance of Ray Peat and Bioengergetics, you should fully be able to become attractive to women and therefore no longer an incel.
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Most men aren't incels in the truest sense of the word. Back when being an "incel" was a niche thing, it was for men who tried absolutely everything beyond actual surgery or body-altering changes and STILL failed.
Nowadays, the term is applied loosely to any man who got rejected a few times and decided "it's over." I'm not denying it's hard to date as the average man. However, it's easy to become "above average" if you care for your health, body, sense of style, and overall develop an interesting personality.
I didn't have a successful dating life until I did the work to become a man worth dating. For most men, that's the course of action to take. So enjoy the ride, lift heavy weights, eat healthy, and get some cool stories to tell.
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@Tahodama said in Is being incel the "new normal" in 2024?:
To be an "incel" (how do modern people come up with all those fancy terms nowadays?), you would have to have severe erectile dysfunction, live in a very conservative country or be pretty poor (which, to be fair, is not seldom the case). Because if you want sex, you could always visit a hooker. If you don't want that because of moral reasons, which is perfectly understandable and reasonable, you're not an "incel". You've made a conscious and deliberate decision.
Andrew Anglin, one of the more thoughtful people from the remnants of /pol/ alt right, defended the modern usage of incel by likening it to gambling: Would you say someone who refuses to partake in a rigged system is "voluntarily not a gambler"? No, that's just someone making a rational decision based on his self-interest. There was not much voluntary choosing, because it implies a significant amount of agency in a decision that was obvious to make. Note here that he thinks choosing to abstain from the dating market is a positive decision, for he elaborates on how many men get screwed over by divorce, harassment accusations, pregnancies, etc, to the point that "voluntarily celibate" is an entirely redundant phrase.
I would argue that "getting laid" plays such a huge role in many peoples lives, that there is a significant amount of agency involved and it's a less obvious choice for most people nowadays.
But I understand the logic. I knew two guys who commited suicide after their wives divorced them and they lived to pay their now ex-wives lifestyle while never seeing their own children. So it makes sense to me to stay out of the marriage market without putting too much thought into it, when the system is rigged.
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Quick personal story:
I made friends with an incel.
Through work.He is stick thin. Glasses. Walks on his toes.
But he is lovely.
An actual gem of a man.Yes, I see him as a man.
He’s into coding and video games
Surprise
Lives with his grandmother
Surprise
And is devoted to his job and a better futureDuring conversation one day
I mentioned he will make a great husband
And I could see his feet leave the groundI’ve seen his male coworker distant with him
Men need men
Women know how to (mostly) chat up and support other women when they need a boost
Men
Do this to your brothersIt’s hard out there
But I know there is a girl who would love a future with my incel friendBe brave
Have hope
Oh
And go out
Get Off The InternetOne act of obedience is better than one hundred sermons.
-DB
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@noseleather said in Is being incel the "new normal" in 2024?:
This is "lookism". It is attractiveness. This is the biggest and most important thing in incelism.
@mentzersmethlab said in Is being incel the "new normal" in 2024?:
I didn't have a successful dating life until I did the work to become a man worth dating.
While it's not completely wrong, blaming societal issues on individual faults is short-sighted. People are more and more lonely in most developed countries which is partially why fewer people have children and more people identify as incel (and I don't mean by it a niche reddit/4chan community).
Blaming men for being ugly is not enough to explain the problem. One has to then show that the environmental cause for their ugliness dis-proportionally affects men over women as otherwise ugly men would find their solace in ugly women. Or show that ugly women no longer find ugly men to be enough as they have delusional standards. (Here "ugly" does not purely refers to looks, etc.)
More importantly, it ignores how courtship has changed in the last century. In the past, it was parents' duty to find appropriate spouse for their child; or, in poorer areas, often people married a neighbour or someone else connected to the immediate social circle. When family abandoned this duty people most often found someone through work or school. But myself and many have already finished school and work remotely. The only solution seems to be now to build as wide social network as possible and hope that a friend will set you up. After trying a few hobbies, I can say that it's extremely hard to do outside of a major city for many reasons beyond my control.
Moreover, as a Catholic, I would like to meet someone who is also a Catholic, but, after good few years, I have yet to meet a single women who regularly goes to confession, is not overweight, and mentally sound (this one is surprisingly the most challenging). Without even considering other preferences (e.g.: not zogged, kind, good looking) or that such a women would have to reciprocate the feelings, meeting one already feels impossible.
@Luke said in Is being incel the "new normal" in 2024?:
To be an "incel" (how do modern people come up with all those fancy terms nowadays?), you would have to have severe erectile dysfunction, live in a very conservative country or be pretty poor (which, to be fair, is not seldom the case). Because if you want sex, you could always visit a hooker. If you don't want that because of moral reasons, which is perfectly understandable and reasonable, you're not an "incel". You've made a conscious and deliberate decision.
Overall, I may not be considered an "incel" by some since I could throw my dignity to a bin and go land whale hunting or pay a hooker, but such argument is an idiotic semantics game and ignores the fact that some people are not degenerates.
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@Peatful 10/10 post
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Sex with someone you love is like nothing else in the world. And sex just for sex is incredible. It is the greatest gift we have. It is sad today that young people aren't having sex that much. 1/3 of young people surveyed hadn't had sex in the past year. Sperm counts are declining 2% a year, and so is the level of average testosterone.
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@Ray-Peat-Fanboy said in Is being incel the "new normal" in 2024?:
Just because a man is unable to get a long term girlfriend , or have sex , doesn't mean that he is automatically going to be filled with hatred towards people lol . Some of them might feel lonely or depressed but thats all. Being unable to get a girlfriend or sex doesn't make you a bad person.
You don't sound like an incel. This is what incels do for fun. Well, that's what they do when they aren't actually murdering people and committing mass shootings. They don't actually want a girlfriend. In fact getting a girlfriend would destroy their whole worldview.
To me you just sound like a loner who hasn't had much experience with socially interacting with women. Even if it feels unnatural to you, you need to force yourself into social situations. A man's biggest hurdle to getting laid is the fear of rejection. Once you overcome this it won't matter to you anymore because you realize it's just a numbers game.
If you find yourself being too socially awkward you could read some books on "pickup artistry." There's a lot of good tidbits in some of them for inexperienced males on social etiquette. I would just caution you to avoid the whole pickup artist culture, which tends to view women and sex as a game more so than finding meaningful partners. Which isn't a healthy attitude to have, and in the worst of scenarios could even devolve into misogynistic behavior. But the introductory phases can be useful.
Lastly, If you want to refine your game, look into the sexual market value system, it's really one of the most accurate analytical frameworks to assess a man's "desirability." This isn't really needed if your end goal is to just have a girlfriend or wife. But if you're one of those dudes that appeals to the sex positive "one night stand" thing, the SMV system when applied appropriately will help you achieve this.
