Revisiting Oral Testosterone
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Well I think I'm done experimenting with that. I did do up to 800mg in EVOO and a few hours after that I got that sensitive / inflamed / pink scalp issue that I remember getting back from the old days when I took Epistane, so I think DHT went way high as expected.
Otherwise, I think my face and skin looked better, but nothing else interesting to report, and overall I still felt like crap. Mood and energy were neither improved nor worsened. Allergies seem to have flared up a bit but that could be just a coincidence with it being spring and the trees blooming now. (Or DHT might have suppressed cortisol all the more.)
I want to try to experiment the opposite way now. I know I have way too low E2 and horribly out of balance TT:E2 ratio (something like 60:1) with long-standing low E2 symptoms that I can't seem to correct. I thought maybe I had low DHT but I was likely reading the bloodwork wrong and probably have borderline high DHT.
I suppose DHT is an anxiolytic and when it's too high there is too much of a sedative effect. And an anti-estrogenic effect. Plus, in a sense, it can be anti-androgenic if it's occupying too many androgen receptors and preventing T from doing the functions it wants to do.
I'm going to look into raising E2 which seems like a tough nut to crack. Then maybe find some mild, natural 5ar inhibitors to bring DHT down just a bit. I don't want to affect any other 5ar neurosteroids, but probably won't have a choice. I'm not touching fin or dutasteride either.
I may try the transdermal some day but I think too much of that will go to DHT and it will probably blow out my TT:E2 ratio even worse. Not sure why I have so little aromatase activity.
In conclusion, the much-lauded "low estrogen, high DHT" phenotype is probably not for me.
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dissolving it Vitamin E would increase half life enormously
In peat's book, he says progesterone dissolved in vitamin E lasts 10 times longer than just taking progesterone normally
I think the same applies to testosterone - the vitamin E makes it attached to chylomicrons that survive the liver
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@wester130 Any suggestions of where to source the vitamin E? Do you think that idealabs tocovit would suffice?
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@jamezb46 yes, tocovit can work, maybe with 5ml of Food grade Ethanol
https://www.toxinless.com/vitamin-e
Uniqe grace e vitamin E also works
healthantura also make a good vitamin E
maybe Now Foods Vitamin E,
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/transdermal-testosterone-solvent.52479/
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@wester130 Thank you. Any idea as to the solubility of T or DHT in tocopherols? For example, in Tocovit? Will be interesting to see how oral with tocopherols vs transdermal with DMSO + Ethanol or IPM + MCT + Ethanol will work.
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@jamezb46 I think someone worked out testosterone should be identical to Progesterone in terms of solubility - and each bottle of 30ml progesterone usually has about 3 grams of progesterone in it
not totally sure about DHT - andractim can be bought at 10% solution - so 10% of 50ml apprixmately but not exactly 5 gram
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does anyone know the % value of Vitamin E to olive oil in this product?
it's not a great product but it has potential
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Thanks
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W wester130 referenced this topic on Jul 17, 2024, 1:16 PM
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Where did you get the micronized testosterone from?
800 mg is a lot, was that in oil? My understanding is if it's in oil to bypass the lymphatic system you need to have fat with it to see a good increase in levels. This is why the Maximus protocol of trt+ has you taking in fat, they also use micronized testosterone with oil to bypass the lymphatic system.
interestingly they use small doses of enclomiphene to fight against suppression, not sure how needed that is though.
I recently did sublingual testosterone, great results, my energy and mood had huge increase, my allergies went crazy though so I assume I'm allergic to the carrier and had to stop.
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@RFC32 PPL sell micronised T
that study did 800mg in peanut oil
to bypass the liver/digestion/lymphatic system it needs to be in vitamin E
I have never seen a study where someone used T base in vitamin E, only things like peanut oil, corn oil and safflower oil or coconut oil and benzyl alcohol.
the same applies to testosterone
"The only solvent for progesterone which isn't toxic
and which will dissolve an effective quantity. is vitamin E.
In this form, it can be absorbed through the skin or other
membranes, or can be taken orally. Taken orally. it is
absorbed as chylomicrons. going into the general circulation
(as vitamin E does), instead of to the liver where it would be
prepared for excretion. In this form, therefore, it is fully
and quickly available to all tissues. It is approximately 20
times more powerful in its action than other preparations, so
it is important to use it in physiological quantities. rather
than in the huge doses commonly given rectally or by
injection. Ten or 20 mg. is often an effective dose, though
people with low thyroid or high estrogen sometimes use 50
to 100 mg . per day. In the customary 10% solution. one
drop contains about 3 mg . progesterone. and 1 011. (114 tsp.)
contains 100 mg . The first dose should never be more than
15 mg." -
So theoretically we could take much lower dosages.
There are studies with straight micronized T no carriers that show decent success with two dosages of 200mg per day, including showing how they solve many sex drive issues of people with T issues. If I recall it didn’t work for all participants to hit super high level. Haidt has it in his write up.
To me this says for those of us with decent levels it’s probably a very good solution. I can first hand say that suppression from sublingual was very manageable.
Maximus reports extremely good results doing a lymphatic bypass and micronized T with 6 mg of Enclomiphene a day to stop you from suppression. I don’t like Enclomiphene but the results are interesting. They do 500 mg micronized T once a day. My guess is with a protest e style formula we could get similar results with much lower dosage and less reliance on something like Enclomiphene.
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the problem is the ester, longer esters being worse
-Longer esters cause higher levels of estrogen
- Longer esters cause more water retention
- Longer esters cause more suppression of the HPTA
- Longer esters cause higher levels of nitrogen retention (muscle gain)in other words are more anabolic
-Shorter esters cause higher peak plasma levels -
I read a study where they gave 400 mg per day in 4 divided doses of 100mg to Eunuchs. There were no detrimental effects on the liver.
Given that Peat recommended 10-20 mg P4 when dissolved in vit E and taken orally, I cannot think of any reason why a low dose of 10mg T orally dissolved in vitamin E would not be massively effective at “supplementing” testosterone levels in healthy men.
I myself am going to get to the bottom of this. T powder is on the way, vitamin E is on hand. Hopefully I can get the T to dissolve in the tocopherols and I can present some solid results after a few weeks of use and we can all get on the same page about the exciting idea of homebrewing the “male version” of progest-e.
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@jamezb46 I’ve been thinking more about this and didn’t realize how similar the idea with this is to what I’ve already taken.
The other formula I’ve used is sublingual but with a different formula that unfortunately I am allergic to. My eyes get so dry after a few days of use I can barely see, it reverses when I drop the supplement.
Aside from that here’s my experiences with sublingual test:
- hits after about 15 minutes when I suddenly feel an increase in mood and energy.
- peaks around an hour, my sex drive suddenly goes way up and general drive goes up.
- desire to exercise goes up too
- aggression increases as well
- my weight decreased after using it for three weeks straight, I stopped because my vision got so bad I couldn’t drive.
- I started dreaming again, I haven’t had dreams in a long time.
I was doing 6 mg in the mornings, than 3 more doses of 4 mg later in the day.
I really want to try with another formulation that I’m not allergic to. I did get some suppression after a few days but I definitely was not shut down.
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@RFC32 Your reaction sounds more like enclomiphene which is known to damage eyesight, especially in DMSO
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@wester130 I have taken enclomiphene before and faced the eye damage and this is definitely different.
It is dry eyes, I have huge issues focusing my eyesight, my eczema also suddenly breaks out. If I take an antihistamine it keeps the eczema at bay but dries out my eyes further.
Enclomiphene gave me oily skin, but no energy or drive and I started seeing floaters in my eyes. The effects of sublingual testosterone were much more of what I’m looking for despite the side effects.
Enclomiphene effects also came on after a couple of weeks, even with the first dose of sublingual test in hbcpd I feel the allergies hit. It’s that dang hbcpd.
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@RFC32 what were the ingredients in the sublingual testosterone??
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@RFC32 for the love of God why would you essentially tease the success you had with sublingual T and not disclose the formulation
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@jamezb46 it uses hbpcd just like the other sublingual studies.
I don’t know these site rules but I do have a link to the seller, but it’s an underground overseas steroid lab basically.
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half lfie looks very short though, they never overcame this problem
I think vitamin E is the only thing that overcomes the short half life
off topic - they are making DMT sublingual with HPBCD