2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking
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@cs3000 carbon dioxide therapy co2 came close ,
20 minutes in a bag filled with co2 that covers half the body, amazingly just twice a week, enhanced by a gel applied locally
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0100530
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@cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:
@cs3000 carbon dioxide therapy co2 came close ,
20 minutes in a bag filled with co2 that covers half the body, amazingly just twice a week, enhanced by a gel applied locally
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0100530
Wow that one is impressive !! RP right again.
So doing a CO2 bath a la Ray peat should be a very good cancer prevention even just once or twice a week!In this study they used a skin cancer , im wondering if other cancers would react the same way. In the abstract they say that it decreased lung metastasis in a previous study, I'd still like to see more studies with dofferenr tumors.
That treatment setup with mice is kind of hilarious
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You should also check out the effects methionine restriction on cancer , especially as a combination with methioniase. There's some impressive case studies in humans as well.
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@Mauritio
yep and i imagine daily would be even better, interesting that short duration was effectivei saw a pic someone posted in a co2 thread with a crazy tall straight clear bag strapped around his head going right up to the ceiling, and was taken from low angle as extra perspective, creased me up , imagine experience of a delivery guy walking in on this lol, "welcome, have you heard about ray peat" before he leaves.
& probably not the safest, but i respected the effort,
will have alook at that
it does work broadly yeah
here it had less profound effect in a connective tissue cancer but still good
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499556/#s2title they did 10 minutes instead of 20 minutesI just saw something amazing actually
when they tested it on breast cancer in vivo it almost didnt grow at all
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@cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:
@Mauritio yep and i imagine daily would be even better, interesting that short duration was effective it does work broadly yeah
here it had less profound effect in a connective tissue cancer but still good
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499556/#s2title they did 10 minutes instead of 20 minutes .
I just saw something amazing actually when they tested it on breast cancer in vivo it almost didnt grow at all :Here we go, big one
https://www.spandidos-publications.com/10.3892/or.2017.5591
great studies by these people exploring all the anglesSurprisingly going for more days of co2 weekly didnt give better effect, 2 days is enough,
but going for longer than 10 minutes does give more improvement (20 minutes worked better) in breast & bone cancer, effect peaks around there as 1 hr did not give better effect- Additionally, in a preliminary study, no further decrease in tumor volume was observed with the 1-h treatment compared to the 20-min treatment
- For the CO2 therapy, there was no difference in effectiveness of frequencies of twice and five times per week; in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.
And they found the cancer regressed below baseline with 20 minutes applications, in all of the mice
And they even said two of the breast cancer tumors disappeared @haidut
Bone tumors also got smaller below baseline
.... this is happening fast over a few days / weeks ... amazingit did not work as well on a rarer aggressive sarcoma tumor. but slowed growth with this (which the table doesnt show)
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in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.
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In the current study, the most significant antitumor effect was observed in the MDA-MB-231 breast cancer model. At the end of treatment, all treated tumors in the MDA-MB-231 model were smaller than pre-treated tumors, and notably, two of the six tumors in the 20-min group had disappeared
Additionally, using a treatment frequency of twice per week, tumor volumes were smaller with a treatment interval of 3 and 4 days than with a treatment interval of 2 and 5 days.
We also found that transcutaneous CO2 application was ineffective when applied at a distant site relative to the tumor location. Therefore, the CO2 therapy should be applied to the body surface close to the tumor location.
We previously developed an alternative system for CO2 application that can access deep-seated tumors using intra-arterial infusion of saturated CO2 solution (20). These findings suggest that continuous treatment, twice per week with an interval of 3 + 4 days, applied to the local site of the tumor, provides the best antitumor effect for transcutaneous CO2 application.So 20 minutes, enhanced by a co2 capturing gel locally to the tumor site, 2 times per week, every wednesday and sunday (3 & then 4 days), gives max effectiveness
sounds like simple glycerol/glycerin + water could work for the gel,
or sodium alginate
(majority water as long as its thick enough to not run down skin)
https://patents.google.com/patent/JPWO2004002393A1/en?oq=WO2004%2F002393-
A viscous liquid prepared using 2 parts by weight of sodium alginate as a thickener and 98 parts by weight of purified water as water is impregnated into a 4 cm diameter polyester nonwoven fabric, and this is immersed in a 1% calcium chloride aqueous solution to support the nonwoven fabric. A hydrogel film of calcium alginate as a body was prepared, and this was adopted as a carbon dioxide absorption aid 4
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An appropriate amount of the carbon dioxide absorption assisting material 4 is applied to a 5 mm diameter scratch on the left back of a 37-year-old woman, a left hand is put in the sealed envelope 2, and carbon dioxide is supplied to the sealed envelope 2 by the carbon dioxide supply device 3 to 10 seconds at a rate of 200 milliliters / second, and then 5 minutes at a rate of 20 milliliters / second. When the auxiliary material was washed away, the pain felt before touching the water completely disappeared, and the wound healing promoting effect was confirmed.
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A 48-year-old man's 5cm square carbon dioxide absorption aid 4 is affixed to the left back of the 48-year-old man, and without putting anything on the right back, each hand is put in the two sealed enclosures 2a and 2b, and each enclosed enclosure Carbon dioxide was first supplied to the material 2 from the carbon dioxide supply device 3 at a rate of 200 milliliters / second for 10 seconds and then at a rate of 20 milliliters / second for 7 minutes.
The man's hands quickly became warm, but the left back felt warmer than the right back.
Gel + ~ 7 Liters of co2 gas sealed in a 20cm long plastic bag was enough for pain reduction and wound healing effect in this woman
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@cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:
i saw a pic someone posted in a co2 thread with a crazy tall straight clear bag strapped around his head going right up to the ceiling, and was taken from low angle as extra perspective, creased me up , imagine experience of a delivery guy walking in on this lol, "welcome, have you heard about ray peat" before he leaves.
& probably not the safest, but i respected the effort,
will have alook at thatLol ... The word peatard exists for a reason
@cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:
I just saw something amazing actually
when they tested it on breast cancer in vivo it almost didnt grow at allNice so it works for breast cancer as well.
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@cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:
@cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:
@Mauritio yep and i imagine daily would be even better, interesting that short duration was effective it does work broadly yeah
here it had less profound effect in a connective tissue cancer but still good
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499556/#s2title they did 10 minutes instead of 20 minutes .
I just saw something amazing actually when they tested it on breast cancer in vivo it almost didnt grow at all :Here we go, big one
https://www.spandidos-publications.com/10.3892/or.2017.5591
great studies by these people exploring all the anglesSurprisingly going for more days of co2 weekly didnt give better effect, 2 days is enough,
but going for longer than 10 minutes does give more improvement (20 minutes worked better) in breast & bone cancer, effect peaks around there as 1 hr did not give better effect- Additionally, in a preliminary study, no further decrease in tumor volume was observed with the 1-h treatment compared to the 20-min treatment
- For the CO2 therapy, there was no difference in effectiveness of frequencies of twice and five times per week; in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.
And they found the cancer regressed below baseline with 20 minutes applications, in all of the mice
And they even said two of the breast cancer tumors disappeared @haidut
Bone tumors also got smaller below baseline
.... this is happening fast over a few days / weeks ... amazingit did not work as well on a rarer aggressive sarcoma tumor. but slowed growth with this (which the table doesnt show)
-
in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.
-
In the current study, the most significant antitumor effect was observed in the MDA-MB-231 breast cancer model. At the end of treatment, all treated tumors in the MDA-MB-231 model were smaller than pre-treated tumors, and notably, two of the six tumors in the 20-min group had disappeared
Additionally, using a treatment frequency of twice per week, tumor volumes were smaller with a treatment interval of 3 and 4 days than with a treatment interval of 2 and 5 days.
We also found that transcutaneous CO2 application was ineffective when applied at a distant site relative to the tumor location. Therefore, the CO2 therapy should be applied to the body surface close to the tumor location.
We previously developed an alternative system for CO2 application that can access deep-seated tumors using intra-arterial infusion of saturated CO2 solution (20). These findings suggest that continuous treatment, twice per week with an interval of 3 + 4 days, applied to the local site of the tumor, provides the best antitumor effect for transcutaneous CO2 application.So 20 minutes, enhanced by a co2 capturing gel locally to the tumor site, 2 times per week, every wednesday and sunday (3 & then 4 days), gives max effectiveness
sounds like simple glycerol/glycerin + water could work for the gel,
or sodium alginate
(majority water as long as its thick enough to not run down skin)
https://patents.google.com/patent/JPWO2004002393A1/en?oq=WO2004%2F002393-
A viscous liquid prepared using 2 parts by weight of sodium alginate as a thickener and 98 parts by weight of purified water as water is impregnated into a 4 cm diameter polyester nonwoven fabric, and this is immersed in a 1% calcium chloride aqueous solution to support the nonwoven fabric. A hydrogel film of calcium alginate as a body was prepared, and this was adopted as a carbon dioxide absorption aid 4
-
An appropriate amount of the carbon dioxide absorption assisting material 4 is applied to a 5 mm diameter scratch on the left back of a 37-year-old woman, a left hand is put in the sealed envelope 2, and carbon dioxide is supplied to the sealed envelope 2 by the carbon dioxide supply device 3 to 10 seconds at a rate of 200 milliliters / second, and then 5 minutes at a rate of 20 milliliters / second. When the auxiliary material was washed away, the pain felt before touching the water completely disappeared, and the wound healing promoting effect was confirmed.
-
A 48-year-old man's 5cm square carbon dioxide absorption aid 4 is affixed to the left back of the 48-year-old man, and without putting anything on the right back, each hand is put in the two sealed enclosures 2a and 2b, and each enclosed enclosure Carbon dioxide was first supplied to the material 2 from the carbon dioxide supply device 3 at a rate of 200 milliliters / second for 10 seconds and then at a rate of 20 milliliters / second for 7 minutes.
The man's hands quickly became warm, but the left back felt warmer than the right back.
Gel + ~ 7 Liters of co2 gas sealed in a 20cm long plastic bag was enough for pain reduction and wound healing effect in this woman
Wow ,what a study!
So it does work for some but not all tumors. But it seems to at least help in all tumors for almost no cost and risk involved. Sounds great.
If the CO2 application is applied too distant from the tumor it doesn't work, though. So if you have a big bag for the CO2 bath, that only goes up until your navel and your tumor is in your thyroid, it won't work.
So for prevention purposes the bag should cover as much body surface area as possible, because you never know where a tumor is developing. Although I'm sure there's something like a beneficial bystander effect. Even if you only bath your foot in CO2 , the whole body will benefit.Peat said just having a wet body surface enhances absorption so after showering would be good time .
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@mauritio
yep easy on the body
the one it showed inhibition on but not shrinkage was a highly aggressive type, i think haiduts study is on an aggressive type too showing a curative effect from the raising of co2 internally . but for people who get inflammatory / allergic reaction to aspirin or have gut issues, maybe external co2 combined with lipoic acid (pyruvate dehydrogenase increaser) + thiamine (carbonic anhydrase inhibitor) could tip things over for this aggressive type tooi didnt find how much co2 they used so going by the process the used in their patent for the wound healing effect assuming its the same.
they said ~7L 8L co2 gas in a bag around the arm 20cm x 15cm, so only a small amount needed with gel, i think 1L at standard temp / pressure is ~2g co2
@Mauritio said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:If the CO2 application is applied too distant from the tumor it doesn't work, though. So if you have a big bag for the CO2 bath, that only goes up until your navel and your tumor is in your thyroid, it won't work.
So for prevention purposes the bag should cover as much body surface area as possible, because you never know where a tumor is developing. Although I'm sure there's something like a beneficial bystander effect. Even if you only bath your foot in CO2 , the whole body will benefit.yeh, mainly local & i'd think the co2 would accumulate at the bottom of the bag if its not filled enough right. but if using a see-through bag can see if skin higher is changing color too or not
if need to target the torso or higher a full 150L bag might be ~ 300g co2 , i guess someone would know if thats too high systemically by body reaction ,
Someone mentioned having carbs 30 minutes before starting , good idea
@Amazoniac With gel it traps the co2 then moves through the skin when it reaches max capacity, and keeps the skin moist through the 20 minute session enhancing absorption , as gel form doesn't evaporate off the skin quick
@TexugoDoMel posted a study showing even using an acid + baking soda in gel has positive effects on muscle repair without using co2 gasBecause of its relatively high solubility, CO2 gas dissolves in the hydrogel. The dissolved CO2 then permeates the skin, moving down its concentration gradient when the maximum solubility in the hydrogel is reached. Our previous study showed that CO2 penetrated human tissue by this system
In this system, the CO2 hydrogel is applied to the skin to allow CO2 to dissolve and penetrate into the local tissue, which humidifies the skin without bathing, thereby forming a passage for CO2 to reach the local tissues. This system allows for the easy application of CO2 to any site of the body.
(without water or gel vs gel)
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Tissues are permeable to CO2, but unlike internal tissues, it seems that the packed organization of the skin inhibits the diffusion of CO2.
I had in mind that a CO2-saturated gel would be superior to CO2 in air, but inferior to direct contact with 100% CO2 gas, making the gel work more as a barrier. However, it can be pressed against the skin to move other components out and maximize absorption.
The pH of the solution decreasing shows that CO2 was yielding some carbonic acid, which further complicates absorption when it ionizes (CO2 + H2O → H2CO3 → H+ + HCO3–), although the skin pH is about 5.
Another advantage of direct gas exposure would be quick renewal. With the gel, the redistribution of CO2 towards the contact sites can be slower.
What am I missing?
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Methionine restriction to enhance Rapamycin (& high dose thiamine possibly as a CA inhibitor but less so)
https://bioenergetic.forum/post/26937 -
@cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:
@cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:
@Mauritio yep and i imagine daily would be even better, interesting that short duration was effective it does work broadly yeah
here it had less profound effect in a connective tissue cancer but still good
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499556/#s2title they did 10 minutes instead of 20 minutes .
I just saw something amazing actually when they tested it on breast cancer in vivo it almost didnt grow at all :Here we go, big one
https://www.spandidos-publications.com/10.3892/or.2017.5591
great studies by these people exploring all the anglesSurprisingly going for more days of co2 weekly didnt give better effect, 2 days is enough,
but going for longer than 10 minutes does give more improvement (20 minutes worked better) in breast & bone cancer, effect peaks around there as 1 hr did not give better effect- Additionally, in a preliminary study, no further decrease in tumor volume was observed with the 1-h treatment compared to the 20-min treatment
- For the CO2 therapy, there was no difference in effectiveness of frequencies of twice and five times per week; in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.
And they found the cancer regressed below baseline with 20 minutes applications, in all of the mice
And they even said two of the breast cancer tumors disappeared @haidut
Bone tumors also got smaller below baseline
.... this is happening fast over a few days / weeks ... amazingit did not work as well on a rarer aggressive sarcoma tumor. but slowed growth with this (which the table doesnt show)
-
in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.
-
In the current study, the most significant antitumor effect was observed in the MDA-MB-231 breast cancer model. At the end of treatment, all treated tumors in the MDA-MB-231 model were smaller than pre-treated tumors, and notably, two of the six tumors in the 20-min group had disappeared
Additionally, using a treatment frequency of twice per week, tumor volumes were smaller with a treatment interval of 3 and 4 days than with a treatment interval of 2 and 5 days.
We also found that transcutaneous CO2 application was ineffective when applied at a distant site relative to the tumor location. Therefore, the CO2 therapy should be applied to the body surface close to the tumor location.
We previously developed an alternative system for CO2 application that can access deep-seated tumors using intra-arterial infusion of saturated CO2 solution (20). These findings suggest that continuous treatment, twice per week with an interval of 3 + 4 days, applied to the local site of the tumor, provides the best antitumor effect for transcutaneous CO2 application.So 20 minutes, enhanced by a co2 capturing gel locally to the tumor site, 2 times per week, every wednesday and sunday (3 & then 4 days), gives max effectiveness
sounds like simple glycerol/glycerin + water could work for the gel,
or sodium alginate
(majority water as long as its thick enough to not run down skin)
https://patents.google.com/patent/JPWO2004002393A1/en?oq=WO2004%2F002393-
A viscous liquid prepared using 2 parts by weight of sodium alginate as a thickener and 98 parts by weight of purified water as water is impregnated into a 4 cm diameter polyester nonwoven fabric, and this is immersed in a 1% calcium chloride aqueous solution to support the nonwoven fabric. A hydrogel film of calcium alginate as a body was prepared, and this was adopted as a carbon dioxide absorption aid 4
-
An appropriate amount of the carbon dioxide absorption assisting material 4 is applied to a 5 mm diameter scratch on the left back of a 37-year-old woman, a left hand is put in the sealed envelope 2, and carbon dioxide is supplied to the sealed envelope 2 by the carbon dioxide supply device 3 to 10 seconds at a rate of 200 milliliters / second, and then 5 minutes at a rate of 20 milliliters / second. When the auxiliary material was washed away, the pain felt before touching the water completely disappeared, and the wound healing promoting effect was confirmed.
-
A 48-year-old man's 5cm square carbon dioxide absorption aid 4 is affixed to the left back of the 48-year-old man, and without putting anything on the right back, each hand is put in the two sealed enclosures 2a and 2b, and each enclosed enclosure Carbon dioxide was first supplied to the material 2 from the carbon dioxide supply device 3 at a rate of 200 milliliters / second for 10 seconds and then at a rate of 20 milliliters / second for 7 minutes.
The man's hands quickly became warm, but the left back felt warmer than the right back.
Gel + ~ 7 Liters of co2 gas sealed in a 20cm long plastic bag was enough for pain reduction and wound healing effect in this woman
I am going through the studies that this Takeshi guy did and there's some interesting ones. Not sure if that one has been shared.
CO2 therapy was just as effective as radiation therapy for this oral squamous cell carcinoma.
But CO2 and radiation combined was a lot more effective. And I suppose CO2 made the radiation a lot safer, as can be seen by the rescued white blood cell count.