Glucose loading cures everything?
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If you want to dig deeper into how to lower ammonia this may be helpful. Using Nathan's suggestions we eradicated our gut issues so we're now back on his protocol (along with glucose therapy.)
(Apologies for language)
https://www.fuckportioncontrol.com/blog/2019/1/21/the-probable-cause-ofnbspautism -
I've been reading more about the itaconate shunt process. The research seems to indicate that after an illness (or trauma) the body forgets how to process carbs and fat for fuel, and INSTEAD uses protein as back up. HOWEVER, the use of protein for fuel can cause excessive ammonia levels in some which will lead to a whole host of other problems. If glucose can bypass the itaconate shunt process that would explain why glucose therapy works.
I'm not sure I would word it that way; the Itaconate shunt is activated not because the body forgets, rather it's a part of the immune system and is meant to not be activated after a few days, but it becomes chronic in some people. This is what Rob Phair is saying in the video I posted. (I see someone mentioned oxygen at some point, and I didn't have time to respond; the Itaconate shunt could lead to that as well.)
The ammonia is a byproduct from the GABA shunt. (Phair talks about the GABA shunt around 40 minutes.) From what I understand the GABA shunt only happens because the Krebs cycle isn't creating enough ATP, when the Itaconate shunt is activated.
Meaning ammonia shouldn't be an issue if the Itaconate shunt isn't activated to begin with, and it likely is activated (way) less when you're taking glucose.
Your body might have ammonia to process from earlier I suppose? But I don't think it's something one would have to focus on, because the most important thing for that processing to take place in the liver is a more functional Krebs cycle. Think of more ATP as more fuel for the motorbike, whereas anything homoeopathic or otherwise for ammonia is a support wheel.
That's not to say a support wheel isn't nice to put on the bike, as the motor starts working better! I've had moments of such severe Itaconate Shunt (I assume) that I smelled a little bit of ammonia. When I have I've used cinnamon, which someone (I think Georgi) recommended on the RP forum.
In regards to the craving for protein: Neurotransmitters are made from amino acids (protein, but is instead used in the GABA shunt when necessary. When the body no longer use the neurotransmitters for the GABA shunt, it can start up "normal" neurotransmitters production again.
Could it be that your body is ready to produce more neurotransmitters and need amino acids for that?
I've explored what to eat, and I've felt a little bit off emotionally. Reading your experience of craving protein made me realize I ended up having less protein for a couple of weeks, and I wonder if that's made me a little bit deficient. I wouldn't be surprised if we're at higher risk of some imbalances, as the body is healing. Back on my "normal" was of eating today, and it's feels good.
I've used a continuous glucose monitor for a couple of weeks, and found that my BG rises and falls quickly with most meals. I played around with what I ate and found if I have sourdough with my meals (or glucose) I have less of a spike, and can avoid a very sudden drop, but I still tended towards low blood sugar often. The more spikes, and the higher the spikes, the more very low blood sugar.
After two weeks of that I'm not sure CGM (which is measured in the tissue) or BG (blood glucose) is a very helpful tool... I think about these measurements more as a marker that something underlying is going on; and that many interventions that "fix" spikes and drops are bandages on a bullet wound.
However, I'm would say I wouldn't be surprised if high spikes (and drops) causes nausea for many who take large doses of glucose. I tested what happened to my BG is I took more glucose. I still do 1 tbsp every hour. When I tried 3 tbsp the CGM showed the highest levels I've seen. I was also incredibly nauseous, from just 3 tbsp.
I am not surprised to hear people don't feel great while on the large doses, and still don't see a good explanation why large doses would be necessary or even helpful. Stephen's explanation is the amount of glucose limiting events, but (without going in to my family histories and ancestry in to great of a detail) I have generations of severe glucose limitation in my genes, my first severe glucose limitation was in the womb, I've been in three car accidents, and have been so sick for the last four years that I've been practically isolated. I'm not an easy case, yet I seem to have the desired effect from a smaller dose.
If I'm right about the Itaconate shunt, it really makes no sense that large doses would be necessary or helpful.
I'm still okay on the 1 tbsp every hour (12-14 a day), but I've had some immune activation the last couple of weeks, and feel quite exhausted from that. I think it's incredibly positive though, as it seems like the body is fighting off some pathogens it hasn't been able to fight before!
The first week was shingles (around the same time as you, @S-Holmes), then something else the week after. With shingles I had one day of "flu", then the familiar pain in the same nerve pathway (I've had shingles twice after covid, which is not uncommon). The pain subsided within a week from the "flu".
The second week I'm less sure what the body was fighting, but it seemed to be fighting something in the chest area, and brain, which could mean it was covid. The active "flu" lasted 36 hours, but I then had some migraines in the days following (which could be due to the overlap with my period, and that fact that I wasn't able to eat as much, and that combination definitely leaves me vulnerable for migraine).
Whatever it was fighting in the chest it was not completed, so I've felt a bit strange and been very careful to take time to rest. Yesterday it seemed to finish the job, or at least a lot more of it. I still sense there is something that needs to be fought again in the brain/neck/spine.
I am still mostly waking up rested, even when I don't feel very good!
Anyone else experiencing the body fight pathogens?
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@gentlepotato I've been reading and watching everything I can find on the itaconate shunt theory. I watched Dr Phair's video again yesterday. He said they haven't figured out why the process continues unabated, and discussed the two types of immune reactions. "Getting stuck" seems a good way to summarize.
We have such similar experiences! I'm up to 7 Tbsps per dose (4 x a day). Symptoms flare and then subside as the next set of symptoms begin, and since my body REALLY talks to me, and the direction of healing (top down, and inside out) is going according to homeopathic philosophy, it seems I am still making progress!
To manage discomforts and aid healing I have gone back on some of Nathan Hatch's gut protocol suggestions. And I have begun taking supplements to lower ammonia (convert it to urea).
I have another follow up appointment with Dr Stephens this afternoon. I'm hoping he can answer questions about how glucose can be processed by the brain if the krebs cycle is interrupted by the itaconate shunt (if it's even a proven theory). Please share more information about that if you find it. The videos I've found are at least 2 years old.
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@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
Glad to hear you're doing the research! And not surprising out experience is so similar, since it seems like the Itaconate shunt may have triggered similar imbalances for us. My thinking is the Itaconate shunt is activated in many illnesses and depending on genes and imbalances already at play will increase issues.
I have another follow up appointment with Dr Stephens this afternoon. I'm hoping he can answer questions about how glucose can be processed by the brain if the krebs cycle is interrupted by the itaconate shunt (if it's even a proven theory). Please share more information about that if you find it. The videos I've found are at least 2 years old.
My sense is Dr. Stephens recognizes that the brain has symptoms, and to explain what he is seeing he has jumped to the conclusion and created a sort of narrative that the brain has a valve that inhibits glucose to enter. Ask him if he can explain that in greater detail, because I don't know what the valve he's talking about it. It sounds more like a metaphor, than biology.
This explanation also leaves out a lot about the metabolism. The Krebs cycle doesn't just happen in the brain, it happens in the mitochondria, all over the body. I'm not sure if there are any glucose pathways that just excist in the brain.
My hypothesis is that the brain isn't getting enough ATP for all the jobs it has, because of the Itaconate shunt. But the Itaconate shunt is not complete (if it was I think we would be dead). If enough glucose somehow affects the amount of ATP produced in the Krebs cycle (meaning the Itaconate shunt is less active) the brain will have more fuel. Does that make sense?
I'll see if I can find some more videos about it! And look forward to hearing what Dr. Stephens say.
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@gentlepotato I'm sorry, I don't have a lot of mental energy to research anything currently. Would you mind sharing with me some basics or a protocol that can help with the energy production that is blocked due to the Itaconate shunt? Are there some simple things that can help, or is it very complicated? I am about 2.5 months into glucose therapy (15 Tbsp doses), and I'm not doing well. I have tried countless complicated healing regimens over the years, and the simplicity of glucose speaks to me. Unfortunately, it's not working (yet). If you could point me in the right direction on this, I would appreciate it.
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My sense is Dr. Stephens recognizes that the brain has symptoms, and to explain what he is seeing he has jumped to the conclusion and created a sort of narrative that the brain has a valve that inhibits glucose to enter. Ask him if he can explain that in greater detail, because I don't know what the valve he's talking about it. It sounds more like a metaphor, than biology.
Dr Stephens himself admits that "the valve" isn't a scientific explanation and is still (half jokingly) asking for spinal tap volunteers to help clarify the process.
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@GlucoseOrBust I'm sorry to hear you're not doing well. Are you taking 15 tbsp many times a day?
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You wrote "I'm hoping he can answer questions about how glucose can be processed by the brain if the krebs cycle is interrupted by the itaconate shunt (if it's even a proven theory)."
My point is that if the Itaconate shunt hypothesis is the explanation the issue was never that the brain cannot process glucose (I'm not sure the brain does*); it just didn't have enough ATP for all the jobs it does.
*Edit: separate from the mitochondria that is.
But definitely ask him how the brain processes glucose!
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@gentlepotato said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
You wrote "I'm hoping he can answer questions about how glucose can be processed by the brain if the krebs cycle is interrupted by the itaconate shunt (if it's even a proven theory)."
My point is that if the Itaconate shunt hypothesis is the explanation the issue was never that the brain cannot process glucose (I'm not sure the brain does); it just didn't have enough ATP for all the jobs it does.
These processes take place in all mitochondria. The brain, being living tissue, has mitochondria. This is why I'm stumped. If this shunt process causes the mitochondria in the body and brain (to varying extents) to use mostly protein to make ATP, then my question to him is how does flooding the brain with glucose change these chemical processes. I don't think he will have the answer, but I will ask him.
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@gentlepotato said:
Stephen's explanation is the amount of glucose limiting events, but (without going in to my family histories and ancestry in to great of a detail) I have generations of severe glucose limitation in my genes
I would like to mark this as a side quest and contribute that immune cells are the continually most energy craving type besides nerve cells. Nevertheless it would ultimately affect all kinds of tissues and cells to have significant shortcomings in cellular energy usage over the long term. [In any kind of starvation or fasting, immunity drops very quickly (which can be palliative and life-saving by limiting the rate of immunological damage in the short term)].
So what you mentioned about (epi) -genetic effects, potentially trans-generationally, and the very real occurrences of trans-generational trauma by physical abuse, war crimes, starvations and the like may very well be perpetuated not only by the original glucose-limiting shunts but as well by the opportunistic changes of the intrinsic intracellular pathogen load, i.e. the so-called metagenome, which is being passed-down from parents to child and can be much exacerbated by adverse events "Metagenomics Of The Human Body", findings from the Human Genome Project.@S-Holmes and @gentlepotato
I have not read up on itaconate yet because I'm having too much on my plate rn. So I need to leave this puzzling-together to you for now and am looking forward to your further findings.What I have tried and can report back on:
Taurine: I had taken 700mgs of taurine to every dextrose serving. It made me more tired/sleepy/groggy like previously when I had increased dextrose. Also, I was craving more dextrose and instead of 80-90gs I was using 90-100gs at a time. So I got the confirmatory impression that taurine definitely enhances glucose uptake.
Hydrogen Peroxide: This can be good news to everyone and particularly to those who've been gaining weight with dextrose. Drinking 2ml of 3% H202 (equivalent to about 3 drops of 35% H202) in half a glass of pure water several times a day increased my warmth, made me a little less hungry, made me crave less dextrose (back down to pretty much 80gs at a time) and looks like it's very subtly but steadily reducing my weight. It provides more oxygen to everywhere, but the H202 itself also acts immunostimulatively, tissue pH balancing, peroxidising many toxins and hydrocarbons and it's actually a cofactor in many enzymatic pathways. E.g. the peroxisomes in almost all cells use and produce H202 and they are where fatty acid oxidation for non-glucose energy creation takes place.
I'm greatly interested in how supplemental H202 works for others who do the glucose protocol.
It may fit in well and make for a holistic approach as an integral complement to glucose. And it's just as stupendously basic and essential which makes me like it a lot.
I highly recommend everyone to read the book "The Truth about Hydrogen Peroxide".
The guy who wrote it has put a lot of effort into it with hopes and aspirations no lesser than those of Dr. Stephens. -
Hydrogen Peroxide: This can be good news to everyone and particularly to those who've been gaining weight with dextrose. Drinking 2ml of 3% H202 (equivalent to about 3 drops of 35% H202) in half a glass of pure water several times a day increased my warmth, made me a little less hungry, made me crave less dextrose (back down to pretty much 80gs at a time) and looks like it's very subtly but steadily reducing my weight. It provides more oxygen to everywhere, but the H202 itself also acts immunostimulatively, tissue pH balancing, peroxidising many toxins and hydrocarbons and it's actually a cofactor in many enzymatic pathways. E.g. the peroxisomes in almost all cells use and produce H202 and they are where fatty acid oxidation for non-glucose energy creation takes place.
I'm greatly interested in how supplemental H202 works for others who do the glucose protocol.
It may fit in well and make for a holistic approach as an integral complement to glucose. And it's just as stupendously basic and essential which makes me like it a lot.
I highly recommend everyone to read the book "The Truth about Hydrogen Peroxide".
The guy who wrote it has put a lot of effort into it with hopes and aspirations no lesser than those of Dr. Stephens.I so wish I could take hydrogen peroxide. I have 3 bottles of 35% food grade in my fridge, but taking it orally just nauseates me terribly, so using it topically (diluted of course).
I had read that taurine burns through glucose quickly. I don't know if this is good or bad, so I use it sparingly.
Thanks for the good discussion friends. This fellow lab rat appreciates you!
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@S-Holmes said in [Glucose loading cures everything?](/
These processes take place in all mitochondria. The brain, being living tissue, has mitochondria. This is why I'm stumped. If this shunt process causes the mitochondria in the body and brain (to varying extents) to use mostly protein to make ATP, then my question to him is how does flooding the brain with glucose change these chemical processes. I don't think he will have the answer, but I will ask him.
It seems like you're looking for a way to incorporate his explanation into the biology. I haven't heard him talk about the Itaconate shunt or the GABA shunt, he isn't speaking about the biology of it all. What does it even mean to "flood the brain with glucose"?
The "down regulation" of glucose utilization is well known for people researching neurological disorders, yet isn't known for a lot of people in medicine. It's new stuff. And those who are working on it don't understand this completely yet, they are at a hypothesis stage. So we can hypothesize, but we may not get the answer from anyone.
I think we are closer to understanding it if we bridge Peat's wisdom with the knowledge of the Itaconate shunt. I'm interested in exploring that, but at this point I think Dr. Stephens metaphors about the mechanism are more confusing than helpful.
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@S-Holmes said:
I so wish I could take hydrogen peroxide. I have 3 bottles of 35% food grade in my fridge, but taking it orally just nauseates me terribly, so using it topically (diluted of course).
I'm wondering whether this is because you are so full of toxins (for some odd reasons there is said to be no Herxheimer from H202) or because it yielded such a metabolic boost in you that it sank your glucose when you had tried it in the past? How's 1 drop 35% but regularly?
@S-Holmes said:
Thanks for the good discussion friends. This fellow lab rat appreciates you!
+1 and thank you too!
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@gentlepotato And the hating on sugar that permeates our culture (especially in alternative health people) certainly won't help us work toward solving this mystery. Dr. Stephens, in spite of the metaphors, may be way ahead of the curve on this. As for me, I know I won't rest until I find a good scientific explanation.
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@CrumblingCookie TBH, I seem to do better on sodium acetate. It raises Co2 levels which will trigger a release of oxygen (from hemoglobin). So just another way to obtain the same (or similar) outcome. At least as I understand it. And no nausea.
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I asked Dr Stephens his thoughts regarding mitochondria in the brain being unable to use glucose. He remains staunchly and confidently unwavering in his position that glucose will heal the brain, and everything else as well. I told him I was going to keep searching for the science to support his therapy and he was fine with that, of course.
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What brand is everyone using?
Finished my Nutricost tub. After reading people’s poor experience with certain brands I’m now questioning my experience. What I thought was sensitivity to glucose may have been a quality control issue? Was never able to go above 3tbsp.
Got very good mental effects from it, but the on/off bloating and nausea limited enjoyment. Experiment is on hold for now.
I guess the name of the game is buy different brands until you find one that agrees with you. Great lol.
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@Jaffe said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
What brand is everyone using?
Finished my Nutricost tub. After reading people’s poor experience with certain brands I’m now questioning my experience. What I thought was sensitivity to glucose may have been a quality control issue? Was never able to go above 3tbsp.
Got very good mental effects from it, but the on/off bloating and nausea limited enjoyment. Experiment is on hold for now.
I guess the name of the game is buy different brands until you find one that agrees with you. Great lol.
I still had bad nausea and the worst heartburn I've ever had (for about a week) on the higher quality brands. I pushed through but it wasn't fun. (Sodium bicarb helped with the heartburn.) They're both MUCH better now so I think it may have been a herx reaction (in my case). I'm at 6 Tbsps per bolus now.
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@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@gentlepotato And the hating on sugar that permeates our culture (especially in alternative health people) certainly won't help us work toward solving this mystery. Dr. Stephens, in spite of the metaphors, may be way ahead of the curve on this. As for me, I know I won't rest until I find a good scientific explanation.
In the One of one's episode Dr. Stephens agreed with the host that white sugar is "bad sugar", so I don't think he's ahead of the curve on that one. Have any of you told him about Ray Peat or the pro metabolic principles? I'd be curious to hear how he responds to Peat's thoughts.
@Jaffe
I'm using a brand called Urtegaarden. It's Danish, and I live in Europe, not sure if it's available on other continents. It's great quality from what I can tell, but that said, when I did high doses I was also nauseous. When I tried 3 tbsp at once I also got very nauseous, perhaps because my BG spiked. So I would think the doses are making people nauseous, rather than the brand. -
I watched that one too and I believe what he meant was it isn't helpful in the context of the brain healing therapy that uses pure glucose (sucrose won't work), but not that sugar is bad in general. I've mentioned Dr Peat to him in our consultations and we've discussed how the prevailing anti-sugar sentiment is a hindrance to healing.
He says that glucose therapy isn't always smooth sailing. I hope my friends here won't give up too soon!