Glucose loading cures everything?

[gentlepotato]

@S-Holmes May I ask how much were you eating while doing the high doses of glucose? Calories and macros?

I've been having more than 2500 the whole time, at only 12-15 tbsp. Right now I'm between 2500 and 2900, macros 20ish day and protein (120-130 grams of protein) and 60+ carbs. I'm loosing weight.

So my thinking is that higher amounts of glucose, especially in a ratio to lower amounts of nutrient dense foods, will deplete your stores of nutrients fast, and with lower calories you'll get less nutrition in. It's not the glucose that's the issue, it's the ratio.

What the glucose is likely doing is giving the immune system enough fuel to avoid an Itaconate shunt. That means a higher demand for energy. This is in part why I've been against the enormous doses of glucose, because that means you need much more overall food - and that seems to have been a bad match, because some where getting nausea and stomach upset from the massive amounts of glucose.

I'm glad you're still taking it, and I think consistency in smaller doses is better. Hope it gives the relief you're looking for!

[S.Holmes]

@gentlepotato Tbh, I didn't track calories, macros, or micros. We know high blood sugar can feed fungal infections. It's a conundrum for sure because humans AND fungi need sugar for fuel. Carb and sugar restriction is not an option. Ketogenic diet is not an option since it raises stress hormones, and also Ray said if we don't provide fuel for "candida" it will break down our own tissues to get what it needs. I took antibiotics for years in my mid teens, and in my early twenties developed an autoimmune disease. Did overuse of antibiotics set me up for lifelong fungal overgrowth? I don't know.

[S.Holmes]

@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

@gentlepotato Tbh, I didn't track calories, macros, or micros. We know high blood sugar can feed fungal infections. It's a conundrum for sure because humans AND fungi need sugar for fuel. Carb and sugar restriction is not an option. Ketogenic diet is not an option since it raises stress hormones, and also Ray said if we don't provide fuel for "candida" it will break down our own tissues to get what it needs. I took antibiotics for years in my mid teens, and in my early twenties developed an autoimmune disease. Did overuse of antibiotics set me up for lifelong fungal overgrowth? I don't know.

Hmmmm.

[gentlepotato]

@S-Holmes what's the source in the last post about glucose and candida? I don't know much about candida, but is it overgrowth in the digestive tract? I'd say the main way to avoid that is motility and avoiding deficiencies.

Did you have high blood sugar? I've tested daily for months and then twice weekly. Never had high blood sugar, and my long term blood glucose is also not elevated, so glucose does not equal high blood sugar.

The way I see it the glucose spread out is a tool for avoiding low blood sugar (amongst other things).

[S.Holmes]

@gentlepotato

https://thyroidpharmacist.com/articles/candida-and-hashimotos-connection/

[CrumblingCookie]

@S-Holmes said:

In other news I've started taking calcium beta hydroxybutyrate, magnesium beta hydroxybutyrate and sodium beta hydroxybutyrate to lose weight. As I understand, these are exogenous ketones so they provide energy without spiking stress hormones like a ketogenic diet would. Would you give these thumbs up or thumbs down?

I think they are good but I'm finding it difficult to clearly distinguish the different pharmacodynamics and effects of proper butyrate, hydroxylated butyrate (BHB) and hydroxylated&methylated butyrate (HMB).
So far I've got the impression that butyrate preferentially reaches the GI cells and the liver but don't know where BHB's and HMB's effects overlap and where not.
I'm increasing from 1g butyrate to 2g butyrate per day. I get a relative lot of extra sodium from that and can't find unhydroxylated potassium butyrate being offered anywhere. Sources for the K-BHB or Mg-BHB are rare too.

Interesting also for immunity that e.g. leukocytes preferably burn SCFAs. I've saved a paper somewhere on which cells rely on which energy metabolism. Will look that up.

PS: Against fungal issues perhaps blast them with oral borax and those (hemi)cellulases (must be included in enzyme formulas) to degrade their biofilms and cell walls, plus berberine, plus L-arginine (read Travis) and turpentine.

[CrumblingCookie]

@S-Holmes
How much of the BHB salts do you take per day?

By what I've coped to read up on BHB:

1. it doesn't smell as butyric acid does. It can therefore be used as loose powder.
2. it shares many benefits with butyric acid, mostly the general HDAC-inhibition which is super super crucial for maintaining intestinal stem cell renewal to thwart lasting damages from chemical, toxic, irradation treatments.
   -2b. the removal of inhibitions for the mitochondrial enzyme hydroxymethylglutaryl CoA synthase HMGCS(2) is decisive for that stem cell renewal.
   -2c. glucose dieting is the worst for healing intestinal issues as, in total contrast, it inhibits HMGCS2 even significantly more instead of helping this much needed recovery pathway.
   -2cc. going by this to me new info I really shot myself in the guts, metaphorically, by hoping for relief and recovery through glucose. Since my health issues start or end in the guts it now appears I've put the cart before the horse. Insert an array of swear words here. Damn!
3. some intestinal bacteria can even use their β-hydroxybutyrate dehydrogenase to convert it to butyric acid.
   -3b. it's a substrate for the fragile lactobacilli to form beneficial biofilms (purportedly very rare) so they can maintain their colonisation and barrier assistance
4. inulin (prebiotic) converts mostly to butyrate instead of acetate or proprionate. So the L.reuteri yoghurt making benefits surely rely a lot on the generously added inulin as a distinctly L.-reuteri-independent treatment.

I'm going to buy potassium-BHB and eat that as high as my potassium requirements allow. I'll aim for 20g a day whereof it's 5g potassium.

[S.Holmes]

@CrumblingCookie said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

@S-Holmes
How much of the BHB salts do you take per day?

By what I've coped to read up on BHB:

1. it doesn't smell as butyric acid does. It can therefore be used as loose powder.
2. it shares many benefits with butyric acid, mostly the general HDAC-inhibition which is super super crucial for maintaining intestinal stem cell renewal to thwart lasting damages from chemical, toxic, irradation treatments.
   -2b. the removal of inhibitions for the mitochondrial enzyme hydroxymethylglutaryl CoA synthase HMGCS(2) is decisive for that stem cell renewal.
   -2c. glucose dieting is the worst for healing intestinal issues as, in total contrast, it inhibits HMGCS2 even significantly more instead of helping this much needed recovery pathway.
   -2cc. going by this to me new info I really shot myself in the guts, metaphorically, by hoping for relief and recovery through glucose. Since my health issues start or end in the guts it now appears I've put the cart before the horse. Insert an array of swear words here. Damn!
3. some intestinal bacteria can even use their β-hydroxybutyrate dehydrogenase to convert it to butyric acid.
   -3b. it's a substrate for the fragile lactobacilli to form beneficial biofilms (purportedly very rare) so they can maintain their colonisation and barrier assistance
4. inulin (prebiotic) converts mostly to butyrate instead of acetate or proprionate. So the L.reuteri yoghurt making benefits surely rely a lot on the generously added inulin as a distinctly L.-reuteri-independent treatment.

I'm going to buy potassium-BHB and eat that as high as my potassium requirements allow. I'll aim for 20g a day whereof it's 5g potassium.

Wow! That's great information! Why not use all of the beta hydroxybutyrate minerals (calcium, magnesium, and potassium)?

[gentlepotato]

@CrumblingCookie said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

@S-Holmes
How much of the BHB salts do you take per day?

By what I've coped to read up on BHB:

1. it doesn't smell as butyric acid does. It can therefore be used as loose powder.
2. it shares many benefits with butyric acid, mostly the general HDAC-inhibition which is super super crucial for maintaining intestinal stem cell renewal to thwart lasting damages from chemical, toxic, irradation treatments.
   -2b. the removal of inhibitions for the mitochondrial enzyme hydroxymethylglutaryl CoA synthase HMGCS(2) is decisive for that stem cell renewal.
   -2c. glucose dieting is the worst for healing intestinal issues as, in total contrast, it inhibits HMGCS2 even significantly more instead of helping this much needed recovery pathway.
   -2cc. going by this to me new info I really shot myself in the guts, metaphorically, by hoping for relief and recovery through glucose. Since my health issues start or end in the guts it now appears I've put the cart before the horse. Insert an array of swear words here. Damn!
3. some intestinal bacteria can even use their β-hydroxybutyrate dehydrogenase to convert it to butyric acid.
   -3b. it's a substrate for the fragile lactobacilli to form beneficial biofilms (purportedly very rare) so they can maintain their colonisation and barrier assistance
4. inulin (prebiotic) converts mostly to butyrate instead of acetate or proprionate. So the L.reuteri yoghurt making benefits surely rely a lot on the generously added inulin as a distinctly L.-reuteri-independent treatment.

I'm going to buy potassium-BHB and eat that as high as my potassium requirements allow. I'll aim for 20g a day whereof it's 5g potassium.

What are your sources here? I've been doing glucose daily since July and no doubt my intesties are healing, I'd even say healthy.

I also did a wee search to learn what Ray Peat might think about BHB, and I found this thread on the old forum, where Georgi is quoted saying it's not recommended.

I agree calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium are very important. I salt generously, supplement some magnesium, and get the rest through my diet, as long as I eat lots of nutrient dense foods.

[CrumblingCookie]

@gentlepotato said:

I've been doing glucose daily since July and no doubt my intesties are healing, I'd even say healthy.

That's great! Can you tell us more about this, how and from what they are healing and how you notice significant differences? Or please refer to an earlier post of you in case I am struggling to remember.

What are your sources here?

-2c. glucose dieting is the worst for healing intestinal issues as, in total contrast, it inhibits HMGCS2 even significantly more instead of helping this much needed recovery pathway.
-2cc. going by this to me new info I really shot myself in the guts, metaphorically, by hoping for relief and recovery through glucose. Since my health issues start or end in the guts it now appears I've put the cart before the horse. Insert an array of swear words here. Damn!

I took up those info on glucose//butyrate effects from this 2019 study. It's in mice but there are references to findings in humans and mammals generally:
Ketone Body Signaling Mediates Intestinal Stem Cell Homeostasis and Adaptation to Diet

This one's not a bad review from 2010:
From the gut to the peripheral tissues: the multiple effects of butyrate. Interestingly, hepatocytes take up butyrate through a liver-specific organic anion transporter 7, OAT7 (SLC22A9), in exchange for sulfate-conjugated xenobiotics and steroid hormones (i.e. efflux of estron-sulphate or DHEA-S). Which should be "peaty", no?

There must be some wise and healthy way to reconcile or combine the whole SCFAs effects with those from glucose. Maybe by taking frequent "low" <60grs doses of glucose like you do for a full gastric/duodenal uptake without disturbing the metabolic homeostasis of lower GI parts. And take no glucose but exogenous butyrates in the evening/before the nighttime stretch in order to feed and induce ketogenic metabolism, circadian leukocyte functions and ISC renewal.
I now view the whole discussions about "sterile guts" and the microbiome in a newly simplified light: Ideally, the GI fermentation would provide a steady supply of SCFAs not only to the gut itself but with a surplus to the human organism as a whole, thereby increasing and maintaining resilience by complementing the energy requirements of the latter and relieving its otherwise dominating reliance on stress-induced ketosis and anaerobic glycolysis to span across times of carbohydrate/glucose fasting.