High Metabolism Keto possible?
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"High fat oxidation" is possible with keto, but not the oxidative phosphorylation that Ray always talked about. It's basically impossible to retain CO2 in ketosis, that's back to square one really. The respiratory quotient, which even low-carbers agree with and use as a reliable way to indicate whether or not they're burning fat for fuel.
The person you're referencing on Twitter has fell into the same trap basically all the Hatch "disciples" have fallen into. You CAN'T rely on temps as a sole indicator of good metabolism. Ray also discovered this back when he first started taking thyroid. Before he took thyroid, he was eating upwards of 7,000 calories a day. After he started taking it, he stabilized out at around 2,500. Burning energy, and burning energy efficiently are not the same thing.
This whole concept about CICO not being relevant has really led a significant portion of this community astray. Also coritsol is thermogenic, and can fool you into thinking your temps are high because of good metabolism.
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@LetTheRedeemed Agree.
There are several varieties of the keto diet. Some emphasis fiber from low-carb veggies, some restrict protein, other are more high-protein. There is also keto heavy in nuts. -
@Mulloch94 The problem is that you can't pinpoint one marker in his blood tests that suggest a bad metabolism or a state of health. That's the issue that arises. There is always some kind of cope.
Oh, his TSH is super low because high cortisol suppresses TSH
Oh, his Testosterone is ultra-high, but it's from stress.
"Oh, his temperature is ultra high, but it's from adrenaline, cortisol. -
@GreekDemiGod said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Mulloch94 The problem is that you can't pinpoint one marker in his blood tests that suggest a bad metabolism or a state of health. That's the issue that arises. There is always some kind of cope.
Oh, his TSH is super low because high cortisol suppresses TSH
Oh, his Testosterone is ultra-high, but it's from stress.
"Oh, his temperature is ultra high, but it's from adrenaline, cortisol.Well I wasn't implying this person is necessarily unhealthy. I don't know. I don't know them or their environment. I was more or less just trying to answer your question in the title. High metabolism - as in high fat oxidation - is possible on (or in rather) ketosis. So no, in a very real sense, you can't have the same type of metabolic rate peaterians speak about while being in ketosis. It would be akin to saying you drive a automatic and a stick shift the same way, lol.
Now the larger question that looms, the one you're hinting at now. Is ketosis bad or unhealthy? I believe it to be, but that's just my beliefs. I'm always opened to being wrong. But I also don't believe you can point to a single marker on anyone and determine them healthy or unhealthy.
In fact a capnometer would probably tell you more than any blood test with regards to metabolism. High or low cholesterol can tell a lot too though. The biggest thing is the food volume itself. No healthy person needs 5, 6, 7,000 calories a day to be "healthy." Only people who train really really fucking hard need that much food, and, ironically, those people are typically not as healthy as the public thinks they are. I don't need a blood marker to know something is wrong with someone's health when they can't go 5 or 6 hours without any food.
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@GreekDemiGod said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Mulloch94 The problem is that you can't pinpoint one marker in his blood tests that suggest a bad metabolism or a state of health. That's the issue that arises. There is always some kind of cope.
Oh, his TSH is super low because high cortisol suppresses TSH
Oh, his Testosterone is ultra-high, but it's from stress.
"Oh, his temperature is ultra high, but it's from adrenaline, cortisol.That’s why :
1- morning temperature
…measured against…
2- temperature 25 minutes after his first meal in a relaxed state is needed.These numbers need to be compared
Or as you said
It’s a bit meaningless -
@Peatful That's a good point about the temps. But I think if you're keto, you basically have to hold the position that cortisol and adrenaline are the "good guys," more or less. Otherwise the argument for low carb makes no sense.
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@GreekDemiGod There’s also the DHEAs to cortisol ratio.
I think it’s easier for people to stay warm from stress hormones. There’s no way he’s staying warm from good thyroid function.
I also think androgen receptors can be insensitive to T leaving a good deal left in circulation.
https://www.exfatloss.com/p/progress
Mans is still a bit overweight yeah?
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@GreekDemiGod said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
The problem is that you can't pinpoint one marker in his blood tests that suggest a bad metabolism or a state of health.
I can pinpoint a few on his timeline but I can only do so with humour.
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@Mulloch94 said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Peatful That's a good point about the temps. But I think if you're keto, you basically have to hold the position that cortisol and adrenaline are the "good guys," more or less. Otherwise the argument for low carb makes no sense.
Ahhh
Never have given any thought to that
So therefore you answer the OPs question
Keto does not equal a high bioenergetic metabolism
(Because that requires high thyroid function low adrenal output.
Adrenals need to be pumping out progesterone and DHEA; not cortisol to keep your BS up) -
@NNight so there is a keto diet ?
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@GreekDemiGod oh totally
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@Peatful Yeah, basically it's "inverted" bioenergetics. All the way to it's inner most core. Back in 2012, when I was a low carber I frequently visited Mark Sisson's daily blog (big thing back in the day), he actually spoke about cortisol a lot. But he always referred to it as the "fat-burning" hormone, not the stress hormone.
Shit gets deeper though. Such as people arguing for really low metabolic rates. The lower your metabolism the longer you live basically. I think Paul Jaminet hinted at this notion a few times without actually coming right out and saying it. His actual words were something along the lines of the higher metabolic tradeoff is greater fertility at the expense of a longer life. But, if I'm being honest, almost nothing Jaminet ever said made sense to me. At it's inner most core, his recommend diet is actually mostly carbohydrate lol. He would also tell people to "limit fats" to lose weight. And that a high sugar diet causes adrenaline surges but not starch based diets. Very confusing man. My final straw for him was when he said endocrinology was "too complicated" and it's best to just maximize nutrition and hope for health. Like, yeah bro, endocrinology is complicated, but we shouldn't shy away from something just because it's hard. Hoping for health won't solve the world's biggest disease mysteries, lol. Anyways I got sidetracked there, I obviously think that guy is a dunce lmao.
There's also various influencers out here that have cited these cultures that fast a lot as evidence of lower metabolic rates increase longevity. Like himalayan monks for example. Which I found dubious at best. While it is ostensibly true those people live slightly longer than average, they also don't live stressful lives. And, perhaps the most interesting thing of all is, they practice breathing exercises that help them retain more CO2. Many also live in rather high elevation. You also can discount the fact fasting lowers endotoxin and bacterial translocation, which is likely lowering one of the biggest inflammatory mediators western people deal with on the daily basis, and it really has nothing to do with caloric intake.
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Aajonus Vonderplanitz also had this weird idea that the body, when it's in optimal health, doesn't even need thyroid hormone at all. And that thyroid is only used when there something wrong. But that guy was even crazier than Jaminet. A lot crazier actually. Clearly had a mental problem and suffered from paranoid delusions. Maybe high serotonin and high adrenaline. Just speculating, but something was fucked with him.
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@Mulloch94 said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
Aajonus Vonderplanitz also had this weird idea that the body, when it's in optimal health, doesn't even need thyroid hormone at all. And that thyroid is only used when there something wrong. But that guy was even crazier than Jaminet. A lot crazier actually. Clearly had a mental problem and suffered from paranoid delusions. Maybe high serotonin and high adrenaline. Just speculating, but something was fucked with him.
Bryan Johnson has left the chat….
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@Peatful said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Mulloch94 said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
Aajonus Vonderplanitz also had this weird idea that the body, when it's in optimal health, doesn't even need thyroid hormone at all. And that thyroid is only used when there something wrong. But that guy was even crazier than Jaminet. A lot crazier actually. Clearly had a mental problem and suffered from paranoid delusions. Maybe high serotonin and high adrenaline. Just speculating, but something was fucked with him.
Bryan Johnson has left the chat….
Haha, has he mentioned anything about primal eating or Vonderplanitz before? I must have missed that if he did. I'll be honest with you, I can't stand those types of guys like Johnson. He's not even 50 yet and he's talking about his cutting edge knowledge and practices in "longevity." NO, just no. No one under the age of 80 (probably more like 90 tbh) should be allowed to talk about their secrets to longevity. Everyone else is just spitballing theory. I also don't see your average 95 year old pinning various peptides in their asses either, lol. Just thought I'd throw that in there. These longevity obsessed tech CEO's have some really odd practices that are far removed from people who actually live to be really really old. Whether or not it's helping or harming them remains to be seen. I do think, at least with thyroid use, it's been shown not to be harmful. Wasn't that Kissinger guy taking thyroid and he lived to like 100?
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@Mulloch94 said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Peatful said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Mulloch94 said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
Aajonus Vonderplanitz also had this weird idea that the body, when it's in optimal health, doesn't even need thyroid hormone at all. And that thyroid is only used when there something wrong. But that guy was even crazier than Jaminet. A lot crazier actually. Clearly had a mental problem and suffered from paranoid delusions. Maybe high serotonin and high adrenaline. Just speculating, but something was fucked with him.
Bryan Johnson has left the chat….
Haha, has he mentioned anything about primal eating or Vonderplanitz before? I must have missed that if he did. I'll be honest with you, I can't stand those types of guys like Johnson. He's not even 50 yet and he's talking about his cutting edge knowledge and practices in "longevity." NO, just no. No one under the age of 80 (probably more like 90 tbh) should be allowed to talk about their secrets to longevity. Everyone else is just spitballing theory. I also don't see your average 95 year old pinning various peptides in their asses either, lol. Just thought I'd throw that in there. These longevity obsessed tech CEO's have some really odd practices that are far removed from people who actually live to be really really old. Whether or not it's helping or harming them remains to be seen. I do think, at least with thyroid use, it's been shown not to be harmful. Wasn't that Kissinger guy taking thyroid and he lived to like 100?
It was in reference to mental illness.
As well as the low metabolism lets one live longer et al…..Kissinger?
Adrenachrome
But I regress…. -
@Peatful @Mulloch94
On Kissinger, I'm reminded of a study on longevity in males, and men in positions of authority live longer.My grandpa managed an office in a pretty high stakes industry, and he lived to 97 (driving a car on his own down town until about 95). He had the healthy homesteader childhood diet, but lived to see the days of the sad diet and didn't maintain any particular healthy dieting. He outlived all his siblings and cousins, and maintained a basically healthy body, with better quality of life as well.
If he didn't retire in his 70s and instead kept up various forms of social leadership (like Kissinger, staying in close proximity to his "game"/parties/affiliations, where his prestige probably granted some ego stroking), he'd probably be in his hundreds easily.
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@LetTheRedeemed Interesting, I think keeping the mind preoccupied with work is a good thing. I guess it's a type of stress really, but it keeps giving someone something to overcome. Adapting to new problems to solve. Once the mind goes the body is typically not far behind.
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@Mulloch94 yeah there would be stress, but I actually view the way my grandpa led as dopaminergic, and reinforcing his self-confidence — something like a game — if you’re successful and don’t over do it, it makes you feel satisfied, and not exhausted.
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@LetTheRedeemed said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@NNight so there is a keto diet ?
Yes.
My first message is a reference about the "There is no Ray Peat diet" meme.There are multiple ways to do it, which make them comparable with difficulty, when they are gathered under the same umbrella term. This is probably what causes the "paradox" you found.
Ps: I'm not defending keto diets, just proper reasoning.
