High Metabolism Keto possible?
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@Mulloch94 said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Peatful That's a good point about the temps. But I think if you're keto, you basically have to hold the position that cortisol and adrenaline are the "good guys," more or less. Otherwise the argument for low carb makes no sense.
Ahhh
Never have given any thought to that
So therefore you answer the OPs question
Keto does not equal a high bioenergetic metabolism
(Because that requires high thyroid function low adrenal output.
Adrenals need to be pumping out progesterone and DHEA; not cortisol to keep your BS up) -
@NNight so there is a keto diet ?
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@GreekDemiGod oh totally
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@Peatful Yeah, basically it's "inverted" bioenergetics. All the way to it's inner most core. Back in 2012, when I was a low carber I frequently visited Mark Sisson's daily blog (big thing back in the day), he actually spoke about cortisol a lot. But he always referred to it as the "fat-burning" hormone, not the stress hormone.
Shit gets deeper though. Such as people arguing for really low metabolic rates. The lower your metabolism the longer you live basically. I think Paul Jaminet hinted at this notion a few times without actually coming right out and saying it. His actual words were something along the lines of the higher metabolic tradeoff is greater fertility at the expense of a longer life. But, if I'm being honest, almost nothing Jaminet ever said made sense to me. At it's inner most core, his recommend diet is actually mostly carbohydrate lol. He would also tell people to "limit fats" to lose weight. And that a high sugar diet causes adrenaline surges but not starch based diets. Very confusing man. My final straw for him was when he said endocrinology was "too complicated" and it's best to just maximize nutrition and hope for health. Like, yeah bro, endocrinology is complicated, but we shouldn't shy away from something just because it's hard. Hoping for health won't solve the world's biggest disease mysteries, lol. Anyways I got sidetracked there, I obviously think that guy is a dunce lmao.
There's also various influencers out here that have cited these cultures that fast a lot as evidence of lower metabolic rates increase longevity. Like himalayan monks for example. Which I found dubious at best. While it is ostensibly true those people live slightly longer than average, they also don't live stressful lives. And, perhaps the most interesting thing of all is, they practice breathing exercises that help them retain more CO2. Many also live in rather high elevation. You also can discount the fact fasting lowers endotoxin and bacterial translocation, which is likely lowering one of the biggest inflammatory mediators western people deal with on the daily basis, and it really has nothing to do with caloric intake.
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Aajonus Vonderplanitz also had this weird idea that the body, when it's in optimal health, doesn't even need thyroid hormone at all. And that thyroid is only used when there something wrong. But that guy was even crazier than Jaminet. A lot crazier actually. Clearly had a mental problem and suffered from paranoid delusions. Maybe high serotonin and high adrenaline. Just speculating, but something was fucked with him.
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@Mulloch94 said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
Aajonus Vonderplanitz also had this weird idea that the body, when it's in optimal health, doesn't even need thyroid hormone at all. And that thyroid is only used when there something wrong. But that guy was even crazier than Jaminet. A lot crazier actually. Clearly had a mental problem and suffered from paranoid delusions. Maybe high serotonin and high adrenaline. Just speculating, but something was fucked with him.
Bryan Johnson has left the chat….
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@Peatful said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Mulloch94 said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
Aajonus Vonderplanitz also had this weird idea that the body, when it's in optimal health, doesn't even need thyroid hormone at all. And that thyroid is only used when there something wrong. But that guy was even crazier than Jaminet. A lot crazier actually. Clearly had a mental problem and suffered from paranoid delusions. Maybe high serotonin and high adrenaline. Just speculating, but something was fucked with him.
Bryan Johnson has left the chat….
Haha, has he mentioned anything about primal eating or Vonderplanitz before? I must have missed that if he did. I'll be honest with you, I can't stand those types of guys like Johnson. He's not even 50 yet and he's talking about his cutting edge knowledge and practices in "longevity." NO, just no. No one under the age of 80 (probably more like 90 tbh) should be allowed to talk about their secrets to longevity. Everyone else is just spitballing theory. I also don't see your average 95 year old pinning various peptides in their asses either, lol. Just thought I'd throw that in there. These longevity obsessed tech CEO's have some really odd practices that are far removed from people who actually live to be really really old. Whether or not it's helping or harming them remains to be seen. I do think, at least with thyroid use, it's been shown not to be harmful. Wasn't that Kissinger guy taking thyroid and he lived to like 100?
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@Mulloch94 said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Peatful said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Mulloch94 said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
Aajonus Vonderplanitz also had this weird idea that the body, when it's in optimal health, doesn't even need thyroid hormone at all. And that thyroid is only used when there something wrong. But that guy was even crazier than Jaminet. A lot crazier actually. Clearly had a mental problem and suffered from paranoid delusions. Maybe high serotonin and high adrenaline. Just speculating, but something was fucked with him.
Bryan Johnson has left the chat….
Haha, has he mentioned anything about primal eating or Vonderplanitz before? I must have missed that if he did. I'll be honest with you, I can't stand those types of guys like Johnson. He's not even 50 yet and he's talking about his cutting edge knowledge and practices in "longevity." NO, just no. No one under the age of 80 (probably more like 90 tbh) should be allowed to talk about their secrets to longevity. Everyone else is just spitballing theory. I also don't see your average 95 year old pinning various peptides in their asses either, lol. Just thought I'd throw that in there. These longevity obsessed tech CEO's have some really odd practices that are far removed from people who actually live to be really really old. Whether or not it's helping or harming them remains to be seen. I do think, at least with thyroid use, it's been shown not to be harmful. Wasn't that Kissinger guy taking thyroid and he lived to like 100?
It was in reference to mental illness.
As well as the low metabolism lets one live longer et al…..Kissinger?
Adrenachrome
But I regress…. -
@Peatful @Mulloch94
On Kissinger, I'm reminded of a study on longevity in males, and men in positions of authority live longer.My grandpa managed an office in a pretty high stakes industry, and he lived to 97 (driving a car on his own down town until about 95). He had the healthy homesteader childhood diet, but lived to see the days of the sad diet and didn't maintain any particular healthy dieting. He outlived all his siblings and cousins, and maintained a basically healthy body, with better quality of life as well.
If he didn't retire in his 70s and instead kept up various forms of social leadership (like Kissinger, staying in close proximity to his "game"/parties/affiliations, where his prestige probably granted some ego stroking), he'd probably be in his hundreds easily.
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@LetTheRedeemed Interesting, I think keeping the mind preoccupied with work is a good thing. I guess it's a type of stress really, but it keeps giving someone something to overcome. Adapting to new problems to solve. Once the mind goes the body is typically not far behind.
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@Mulloch94 yeah there would be stress, but I actually view the way my grandpa led as dopaminergic, and reinforcing his self-confidence — something like a game — if you’re successful and don’t over do it, it makes you feel satisfied, and not exhausted.
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@LetTheRedeemed said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@NNight so there is a keto diet ?
Yes.
My first message is a reference about the "There is no Ray Peat diet" meme.There are multiple ways to do it, which make them comparable with difficulty, when they are gathered under the same umbrella term. This is probably what causes the "paradox" you found.
Ps: I'm not defending keto diets, just proper reasoning.
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@yerrag said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
I wonder if we can follow the range of the medical complex, as the range set is very loose. If the population (is the sickly US population) is the basis for range, then at the very least to consider his cortisol low, his cortisol has to be low of range. But is it?
I feel like I am talking over your head, by your inability to respond.
You don't understand at all why it's not acceptable at all that his cortisol is merely within the range as set by the medical complex, which is very loose.
So what if his cortisol is within the loose range? Better yet, you have to ask why his cortisol isn't at all on the low side of range.
Cortisol is a stress hormone. By Peat's standard, your stress hormones have to be low. It means nothing that his cortisol is within range. It means everything that his cortisol is on the low side of range.
And his cortisol is never on the low side of range.
And since it's a given that his blood sugar is not subject to fluctuating to low levels given that eating lo carb does not subject him to wild swings in blood sugar from high to low (due to less insulin produced), he is not expected to have cortisol levels that are above range.
What matters is that his cortisol levels are not low, and are often on the high side. And you have to ask why that is so. If he is constantly on the high side of range with cortisol, then he is still running on cortisol regularly, as opposed to the ideal where he does not depend on cortisol to keep his blood sugar levels on a stable and normal level (in which case his cortisol level would be on the low side of normal).
You have to look deeper into the numbers, not simply accept uncritically what is presented to you. If it quacks, it's not a dog even though the tag says it's a dog.
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@Mulloch94 amber o’Hearn said that cortisol is not elevated in ketosis, only when in a state of hypoglycaemia.
And it’s glucagon that is elevated. -
I stopped following the keto trends around 2020, but up until then, there was no debate of differing views among the major influencers, over “low fat/high fat” keto diet — where that was distinguished, was more contextual advice troubleshooting a health problem.
The central claim in fact (that major keto influencers advocated), that enticed many normies such as myself was that once in ketosis, calories from fat don’t significantly impact weight loss — and that worked for me until it didn’t. The real problem is that keto advocates don’t know what they are doing.
Great normie-scientist biolayne, made an infamous skit mocking it at the time, pouring pan grease all over his eggs and bacon, because the calories-from-fat-in-ketosis-don’t-matter claim, reached the normie ear.
Ketosists just didn’t like that Jimmy Moore didn’t lose weight like he was supposed to, so without any critical thinking, the Reddit poster claimed he was a “glutton.” I generally wouldn’t use a singular anon comment to frame the keto side of argument of course.
Ray said a diet of 50% calories from fat can be fine, while also advocating low fat many times, or high starch consumption can be fine, while generally advocating to avoid starch. He experimented with higher protein and low protein. He advocated some get their protein from potato juice. He said a vegetarian diet could work; Of course we know he thought vegetarianism was silly and that red meat and animal products were supreme. There never was a Ray Peat diet.
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@LetTheRedeemed
What is a diet?
What we should collectively do is discuss the best arguments of the adverse party, this is rarely done. The question is: is a "sustainable" keto diet possible, or are there better keto diets than others? Moore's specific case is of no utility here. Same for what keto influencers think.
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@NNight those are all good ideas, and Ray, Danny, Jay Feldman, and Kyle Mamounis have all done high level deconstructions of keto theory, but I reserve the right to point out keto’s utter incompetence addressing what is going on with their failures like myself and many others, including Jimmy Moore.
When I say “influencer,” I don’t mean TikTok body builders, I mean the Doctors who popularized the belief that CICO takes a back seat to ketosis, making keto widespread and popular amongst laymen, like Dr Ken Berry, Dr Berg and others who were pitched by many respectable members of the community, and by themselves, as authorities on the “science.”
I felt best on high dairy fat keto, but couldn’t lose weight. So I went with low-fat for the original purpose of doing keto in the first place; this worked until it didn’t — then fasting — which just had to get longer and longer until it stopped working.
If what you’re trying to get me to say, is that keto advocates have a wack-a-mole understanding of physiology and biology, then I’ll say that lol
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@GreekDemiGod said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Mulloch94 amber o’Hearn said that cortisol is not elevated in ketosis, only when in a state of hypoglycaemia.
And it’s glucagon that is elevated.I don't really see how it's biochemically possible to elevate glucagon without also elevating cortisol to some certain degree. When the adrenagenic (set in motion by adrenaline) response to beta oxidation causes increases in glucagon, glucagon activates the HPA axis to release ACTH which signals cortisol.
Perhaps you could argue the physiological insulin resistance caused by ketosis might blunt cortisol to a certain degree. Think of guys like Shawn Baker, who has 120 fasting blood glucose. But even in those cases, the glucose has to be coming from somewhere. Either it making it from tearing down lean tissues, or the subject is actually eating enough protein to stimulate glucose creation from dietary amino acids. But I think both muscle catabolism and gluconeogenesis need cortisol.
I have seen certain studies that showed a very low protein diet can blunt the ACTH response in the HPA. Been a while since I looked at those, but I'm pretty sure they were normal carbohydrate based diets. But perhaps it can occur to some degree (probably to a lesser extent though) in a very low protein ketogenic based diet. Which isn't that common tbh. Most keto bros end up eating more protein than they realize.
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Tucker goodrich (what a name) is an interesting specimen in this space as well.
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These lab results don’t always tell the whole story.
I’m naturally at 800 - 900 total T, tsh of around 1.5, free T at 3%, T3 in the upper range, waking temp of 98.6, prolactin at 6, perfect heart function shown on EKG and echo, and I still feel like complete ass.
Keto, carnivore, “Peaty”, fasting, frequent feeding, no improvement with any sort of diet.
Point of the anecdote: blood tests aren’t everything. Friends of mine with T in the 400’s are bouncing around with shit eating grins while I’m barely awake.
