High Metabolism Keto possible?
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Thanks for sharing it. Only my current angle herein.
@GreekDemiGod said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
Ray Peat was clearly bonkers-level wrong about keto, and Peatists just can't accept the truth.
Just like ketards who can't accept infinity protein isn't the only solution, or that seed oils might be more important than carbs.Yea, I think Peat is right on many things - he was anti-PUFA and wary of high BCAAs, and probably many others issues I haven't read about yet (I've only read a bit of his writing).
Modern "internet keto" is, in a sense, a death trap for many - it's "bacon bacon bacon!" all the time, it implicitly encourages many people to consume e.g. salad dressings with soybean oil and high-PUFA chicken/pork, and way too much muscle meat.
But keto can also be done low-PUFA and low/moderate/adequate BCAA.
The idea that nobody, anywhere, could possibly be healthy on keto long-term is what I'm taking issue with.Raymond probably wasn't wrong. He probably just wasn't done, assuming that's possible at all. I probably wouldn't take advice from the person who wrote that. But maybe they were having a bad day.
Keto seem risky to me. But I guess, whether it is to them depends on context behind them, what their goal is, what they mean by "healthy" and "long-term".
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I was super hot the first few months on keto carnivore (lots of dairy fat and clabbered milk), and I'm sure my pulse was up (but didn't check). it's been established (so I thought) that adrenaline can compensate convincingly for a while to maintain metabolic rate.
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@yerrag said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
Funny thing with people who use only an incomplete set of biomarkers. Because knowing too little of our biochemistry is dangerous.
Your spot on (again).
Here is an interview that I found to be helpful.
https://mercola.libsyn.com/low-carb-cortisol-and-glucose-discussion-between-georgi-dinkov-dr-mercolaGlucose — when it goes through the mitochondrial transport chain — burns far “cleaner” than fat, creating almost a minimal amount of reactive oxygen species (ROS)
If your fat intake is higher than 30%, glucose will be metabolized through glycolysis and not in the mitochondria, which increases lactic acid.
The fat percentage limit for most healthy people is likely around 35%, whereas diabetics and the obese may need to limit their fat intake to 15%Your body releases cortisol to produce endogenous glucose when your blood sugar is low. Cortisol breaks down your lean muscle, bones and brain to make amino acids that your liver then converts to glucose. Cortisol also promotes inflammation
The best way to cure a dietary disease is to improve the diet.
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Thanks for backing it up with haidut's interviews, from which I get a lot of material as well. But you're very organized that I appreciate from myself being very bad at. I just couldn't get all that in for organized such that I can always access it as reference.
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Waking up at 99.4F is pretty clearly high cortisol and stress hormones. T can be high from a stress response, not being readily taken up by the cells and converted a lot to estrogen. And TSH can be suppressed by stress hormones. That’s all the Peaty cope I can come up with.
If anyone wants to try that diet long term good luck
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@ThinPicking said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
He probably just wasn't done
Actually it's far more likely the reader isn't done, or needs to reread. Far more likely I am the problem.
Also plus one for Yerrag's analysis up there.
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@BroJonas how is this worse than someone with low waking temperature and low Testosterone? That someone doesn’t even have the adrenal resources to regulate his body temperature to an optimal level.
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He is very accessible on Reddit (on the r/saturatedfat subreddit) or on his blog. And I think he also like to do experiments. For example he just carried out a test measuring his "calories out" and which costs near 1000$ (if I remember correctly).
Thus, we might convince him to do cheap blood tests to find whether he really has high cortisol or other metrics?
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@NNight He has also posted cortisol tests, all in range.
https://x.com/exfatloss/status/1787899476767600743Oh, and he's been doing it for 8 years.
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I wonder if we can follow the range of the medical complex, as the range set is very loose. If the population (is the sickly US population) is the basis for range, then at the very least to consider his cortisol low, his cortisol has to be low of range. But is it?
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
Lots to add here
But I’ll keep this brief
1- have you heard of long keto expert Jimmy Moore? Check him out. It will be relevant with a small search- and speak volumes.
2- I have to assume- most of this exfat guys health comes from robust kcal not magical keto.
3- attacking Ray Peat is infantile imo. High estrogen or serotonin. Who knows. But it doesn’t help his optics.
One act of obedience is better than one hundred sermons.
-DB
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@Peatful
About Jimmy Moore (https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/apbzv7/comment/eg7c7f0/) :He's a glutton, that's the explanation. He gorges himself on unlimited fat and calories and eats low protein. He thinks if you don't eat HUGE amounts of fat, you become 'fat deficient'
It looks like the kcal haven't made him any favor.
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@NNight said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Peatful
About Jimmy Moore (https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/apbzv7/comment/eg7c7f0/) :He's a glutton, that's the explanation. He gorges himself on unlimited fat and calories and eats low protein. He thinks if you don't eat HUGE amounts of fat, you become 'fat deficient'
It looks like the kcal haven't made him any favor.
Thanks
Im not looking at reddit comments for understanding - but physiology.
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Notice how when someone with a healthy metabolism eats high animal fat, low protein/carb, they are proving a keto diet to be pro-metabolic, but when someone with a poor metabolism does the same, they are a glutton? Thus the keto advocates implicate CICO, negating their sophisticated theories surrounding "type of calorie (aka sugar vs fat)" over CICO.
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There is no keto diet.
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@NNight there is to keto advocates
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@LetTheRedeemed
Yes, there are ketogenic dietS.
Drinking only seeds oil is one of them. -
"High fat oxidation" is possible with keto, but not the oxidative phosphorylation that Ray always talked about. It's basically impossible to retain CO2 in ketosis, that's back to square one really. The respiratory quotient, which even low-carbers agree with and use as a reliable way to indicate whether or not they're burning fat for fuel.
The person you're referencing on Twitter has fell into the same trap basically all the Hatch "disciples" have fallen into. You CAN'T rely on temps as a sole indicator of good metabolism. Ray also discovered this back when he first started taking thyroid. Before he took thyroid, he was eating upwards of 7,000 calories a day. After he started taking it, he stabilized out at around 2,500. Burning energy, and burning energy efficiently are not the same thing.
This whole concept about CICO not being relevant has really led a significant portion of this community astray. Also coritsol is thermogenic, and can fool you into thinking your temps are high because of good metabolism.
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@LetTheRedeemed Agree.
There are several varieties of the keto diet. Some emphasis fiber from low-carb veggies, some restrict protein, other are more high-protein. There is also keto heavy in nuts. -
@Mulloch94 The problem is that you can't pinpoint one marker in his blood tests that suggest a bad metabolism or a state of health. That's the issue that arises. There is always some kind of cope.
Oh, his TSH is super low because high cortisol suppresses TSH
Oh, his Testosterone is ultra-high, but it's from stress.
"Oh, his temperature is ultra high, but it's from adrenaline, cortisol.
