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High Metabolism Keto possible?

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  • B
    bot-mod @bot-mod
    last edited by Jun 30, 2024, 9:40 PM

    @ThinPicking said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:

    He probably just wasn't done

    Actually it's far more likely the reader isn't done, or needs to reread. Far more likely I am the problem.

    Also plus one for Yerrag's analysis up there.

    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
    • G
      GreekDemiGod @BroJonas
      last edited by GreekDemiGod Jul 1, 2024, 8:46 AM Jul 1, 2024, 8:45 AM

      @BroJonas how is this worse than someone with low waking temperature and low Testosterone? That someone doesn’t even have the adrenal resources to regulate his body temperature to an optimal level.

      B 1 Reply Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 8:28 PM Reply Quote 0
      • N
        NNight
        last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 8:55 AM

        He is very accessible on Reddit (on the r/saturatedfat subreddit) or on his blog. And I think he also like to do experiments. For example he just carried out a test measuring his "calories out" and which costs near 1000$ (if I remember correctly).

        Thus, we might convince him to do cheap blood tests to find whether he really has high cortisol or other metrics?

        G 1 Reply Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 10:02 AM Reply Quote 0
        • G
          GreekDemiGod @NNight
          last edited by GreekDemiGod Jul 1, 2024, 10:11 AM Jul 1, 2024, 10:02 AM

          @NNight He has also posted cortisol tests, all in range.
          https://x.com/exfatloss/status/1787899476767600743

          Oh, and he's been doing it for 8 years.

          Y 1 Reply Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 10:39 AM Reply Quote 0
          • Y
            yerrag @GreekDemiGod
            last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 10:39 AM

            @GreekDemiGod

            I wonder if we can follow the range of the medical complex, as the range set is very loose. If the population (is the sickly US population) is the basis for range, then at the very least to consider his cortisol low, his cortisol has to be low of range. But is it?

            Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
            engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
            wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
            the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter

            Y 1 Reply Last reply Jul 2, 2024, 7:06 AM Reply Quote 0
            • P
              Peatful
              last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 10:55 AM

              Lots to add here

              But I’ll keep this brief

              1- have you heard of long keto expert Jimmy Moore? Check him out. It will be relevant with a small search- and speak volumes.

              2- I have to assume- most of this exfat guys health comes from robust kcal not magical keto.

              3- attacking Ray Peat is infantile imo. High estrogen or serotonin. Who knows. But it doesn’t help his optics.

              The further society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it.

              SD

              N 1 Reply Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 1:45 PM Reply Quote 0
              • N
                NNight @Peatful
                last edited by NNight Jul 1, 2024, 1:46 PM Jul 1, 2024, 1:45 PM

                @Peatful
                About Jimmy Moore (https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/apbzv7/comment/eg7c7f0/) :

                He's a glutton, that's the explanation. He gorges himself on unlimited fat and calories and eats low protein. He thinks if you don't eat HUGE amounts of fat, you become 'fat deficient'

                It looks like the kcal haven't made him any favor.

                P 1 Reply Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 1:51 PM Reply Quote 0
                • P
                  Peatful @NNight
                  last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 1:51 PM

                  @NNight said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:

                  @Peatful
                  About Jimmy Moore (https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/apbzv7/comment/eg7c7f0/) :

                  He's a glutton, that's the explanation. He gorges himself on unlimited fat and calories and eats low protein. He thinks if you don't eat HUGE amounts of fat, you become 'fat deficient'

                  It looks like the kcal haven't made him any favor.

                  Thanks

                  Im not looking at reddit comments for understanding - but physiology.

                  The further society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it.

                  SD

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • L
                    LetTheRedeemed
                    last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 2:34 PM

                    Notice how when someone with a healthy metabolism eats high animal fat, low protein/carb, they are proving a keto diet to be pro-metabolic, but when someone with a poor metabolism does the same, they are a glutton? Thus the keto advocates implicate CICO, negating their sophisticated theories surrounding "type of calorie (aka sugar vs fat)" over CICO.

                    N 1 Reply Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 3:14 PM Reply Quote 0
                    • N
                      NNight @LetTheRedeemed
                      last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 3:14 PM

                      @LetTheRedeemed

                      There is no keto diet.

                      L 1 Reply Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 3:47 PM Reply Quote 0
                      • L
                        LetTheRedeemed @NNight
                        last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 3:47 PM

                        @NNight there is to keto advocates

                        N G 2 Replies Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 5:51 PM Reply Quote 0
                        • N
                          NNight @LetTheRedeemed
                          last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 5:51 PM

                          @LetTheRedeemed
                          Yes, there are ketogenic dietS.
                          Drinking only seeds oil is one of them.

                          L 1 Reply Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 9:06 PM Reply Quote 0
                          • M
                            Mulloch94
                            last edited by Mulloch94 Jul 1, 2024, 7:02 PM Jul 1, 2024, 7:02 PM

                            "High fat oxidation" is possible with keto, but not the oxidative phosphorylation that Ray always talked about. It's basically impossible to retain CO2 in ketosis, that's back to square one really. The respiratory quotient, which even low-carbers agree with and use as a reliable way to indicate whether or not they're burning fat for fuel.

                            The person you're referencing on Twitter has fell into the same trap basically all the Hatch "disciples" have fallen into. You CAN'T rely on temps as a sole indicator of good metabolism. Ray also discovered this back when he first started taking thyroid. Before he took thyroid, he was eating upwards of 7,000 calories a day. After he started taking it, he stabilized out at around 2,500. Burning energy, and burning energy efficiently are not the same thing.

                            This whole concept about CICO not being relevant has really led a significant portion of this community astray. Also coritsol is thermogenic, and can fool you into thinking your temps are high because of good metabolism.

                            G 1 Reply Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 7:20 PM Reply Quote 0
                            • G
                              GreekDemiGod @LetTheRedeemed
                              last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 7:17 PM

                              @LetTheRedeemed Agree.
                              There are several varieties of the keto diet. Some emphasis fiber from low-carb veggies, some restrict protein, other are more high-protein. There is also keto heavy in nuts.

                              L 1 Reply Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 9:08 PM Reply Quote 0
                              • G
                                GreekDemiGod @Mulloch94
                                last edited by GreekDemiGod Jul 1, 2024, 7:22 PM Jul 1, 2024, 7:20 PM

                                @Mulloch94 The problem is that you can't pinpoint one marker in his blood tests that suggest a bad metabolism or a state of health. That's the issue that arises. There is always some kind of cope.

                                Oh, his TSH is super low because high cortisol suppresses TSH
                                Oh, his Testosterone is ultra-high, but it's from stress.
                                "Oh, his temperature is ultra high, but it's from adrenaline, cortisol.

                                M P B M 4 Replies Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 7:38 PM Reply Quote 0
                                • M
                                  Mulloch94 @GreekDemiGod
                                  last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 7:38 PM

                                  @GreekDemiGod said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:

                                  @Mulloch94 The problem is that you can't pinpoint one marker in his blood tests that suggest a bad metabolism or a state of health. That's the issue that arises. There is always some kind of cope.

                                  Oh, his TSH is super low because high cortisol suppresses TSH
                                  Oh, his Testosterone is ultra-high, but it's from stress.
                                  "Oh, his temperature is ultra high, but it's from adrenaline, cortisol.

                                  Well I wasn't implying this person is necessarily unhealthy. I don't know. I don't know them or their environment. I was more or less just trying to answer your question in the title. High metabolism - as in high fat oxidation - is possible on (or in rather) ketosis. So no, in a very real sense, you can't have the same type of metabolic rate peaterians speak about while being in ketosis. It would be akin to saying you drive a automatic and a stick shift the same way, lol.

                                  Now the larger question that looms, the one you're hinting at now. Is ketosis bad or unhealthy? I believe it to be, but that's just my beliefs. I'm always opened to being wrong. But I also don't believe you can point to a single marker on anyone and determine them healthy or unhealthy.

                                  In fact a capnometer would probably tell you more than any blood test with regards to metabolism. High or low cholesterol can tell a lot too though. The biggest thing is the food volume itself. No healthy person needs 5, 6, 7,000 calories a day to be "healthy." Only people who train really really fucking hard need that much food, and, ironically, those people are typically not as healthy as the public thinks they are. I don't need a blood marker to know something is wrong with someone's health when they can't go 5 or 6 hours without any food.

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • P
                                    Peatful @GreekDemiGod
                                    last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 7:46 PM

                                    @GreekDemiGod said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:

                                    @Mulloch94 The problem is that you can't pinpoint one marker in his blood tests that suggest a bad metabolism or a state of health. That's the issue that arises. There is always some kind of cope.

                                    Oh, his TSH is super low because high cortisol suppresses TSH
                                    Oh, his Testosterone is ultra-high, but it's from stress.
                                    "Oh, his temperature is ultra high, but it's from adrenaline, cortisol.

                                    That’s why :
                                    1- morning temperature
                                    …measured against…
                                    2- temperature 25 minutes after his first meal in a relaxed state is needed.

                                    These numbers need to be compared
                                    Or as you said
                                    It’s a bit meaningless

                                    The further society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it.

                                    SD

                                    M 1 Reply Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 8:07 PM Reply Quote 0
                                    • M
                                      Mulloch94 @Peatful
                                      last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 8:07 PM

                                      @Peatful That's a good point about the temps. But I think if you're keto, you basically have to hold the position that cortisol and adrenaline are the "good guys," more or less. Otherwise the argument for low carb makes no sense.

                                      P G 2 Replies Last reply Jul 1, 2024, 9:04 PM Reply Quote 0
                                      • B
                                        BroJonas @GreekDemiGod
                                        last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 8:28 PM

                                        @GreekDemiGod There’s also the DHEAs to cortisol ratio.

                                        I think it’s easier for people to stay warm from stress hormones. There’s no way he’s staying warm from good thyroid function.

                                        I also think androgen receptors can be insensitive to T leaving a good deal left in circulation.

                                        https://www.exfatloss.com/p/progress

                                        Mans is still a bit overweight yeah?

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • B
                                          bot-mod @GreekDemiGod
                                          last edited by Jul 1, 2024, 8:31 PM

                                          @GreekDemiGod said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:

                                          The problem is that you can't pinpoint one marker in his blood tests that suggest a bad metabolism or a state of health.

                                          I can pinpoint a few on his timeline but I can only do so with humour.

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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