High Metabolism Keto possible?
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@Peatful @Mulloch94
On Kissinger, I'm reminded of a study on longevity in males, and men in positions of authority live longer.My grandpa managed an office in a pretty high stakes industry, and he lived to 97 (driving a car on his own down town until about 95). He had the healthy homesteader childhood diet, but lived to see the days of the sad diet and didn't maintain any particular healthy dieting. He outlived all his siblings and cousins, and maintained a basically healthy body, with better quality of life as well.
If he didn't retire in his 70s and instead kept up various forms of social leadership (like Kissinger, staying in close proximity to his "game"/parties/affiliations, where his prestige probably granted some ego stroking), he'd probably be in his hundreds easily.
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@LetTheRedeemed Interesting, I think keeping the mind preoccupied with work is a good thing. I guess it's a type of stress really, but it keeps giving someone something to overcome. Adapting to new problems to solve. Once the mind goes the body is typically not far behind.
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@Mulloch94 yeah there would be stress, but I actually view the way my grandpa led as dopaminergic, and reinforcing his self-confidence — something like a game — if you’re successful and don’t over do it, it makes you feel satisfied, and not exhausted.
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@LetTheRedeemed said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@NNight so there is a keto diet ?
Yes.
My first message is a reference about the "There is no Ray Peat diet" meme.There are multiple ways to do it, which make them comparable with difficulty, when they are gathered under the same umbrella term. This is probably what causes the "paradox" you found.
Ps: I'm not defending keto diets, just proper reasoning.
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@yerrag said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
I wonder if we can follow the range of the medical complex, as the range set is very loose. If the population (is the sickly US population) is the basis for range, then at the very least to consider his cortisol low, his cortisol has to be low of range. But is it?
I feel like I am talking over your head, by your inability to respond.
You don't understand at all why it's not acceptable at all that his cortisol is merely within the range as set by the medical complex, which is very loose.
So what if his cortisol is within the loose range? Better yet, you have to ask why his cortisol isn't at all on the low side of range.
Cortisol is a stress hormone. By Peat's standard, your stress hormones have to be low. It means nothing that his cortisol is within range. It means everything that his cortisol is on the low side of range.
And his cortisol is never on the low side of range.
And since it's a given that his blood sugar is not subject to fluctuating to low levels given that eating lo carb does not subject him to wild swings in blood sugar from high to low (due to less insulin produced), he is not expected to have cortisol levels that are above range.
What matters is that his cortisol levels are not low, and are often on the high side. And you have to ask why that is so. If he is constantly on the high side of range with cortisol, then he is still running on cortisol regularly, as opposed to the ideal where he does not depend on cortisol to keep his blood sugar levels on a stable and normal level (in which case his cortisol level would be on the low side of normal).
You have to look deeper into the numbers, not simply accept uncritically what is presented to you. If it quacks, it's not a dog even though the tag says it's a dog.
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@Mulloch94 amber o’Hearn said that cortisol is not elevated in ketosis, only when in a state of hypoglycaemia.
And it’s glucagon that is elevated. -
I stopped following the keto trends around 2020, but up until then, there was no debate of differing views among the major influencers, over “low fat/high fat” keto diet — where that was distinguished, was more contextual advice troubleshooting a health problem.
The central claim in fact (that major keto influencers advocated), that enticed many normies such as myself was that once in ketosis, calories from fat don’t significantly impact weight loss — and that worked for me until it didn’t. The real problem is that keto advocates don’t know what they are doing.
Great normie-scientist biolayne, made an infamous skit mocking it at the time, pouring pan grease all over his eggs and bacon, because the calories-from-fat-in-ketosis-don’t-matter claim, reached the normie ear.
Ketosists just didn’t like that Jimmy Moore didn’t lose weight like he was supposed to, so without any critical thinking, the Reddit poster claimed he was a “glutton.” I generally wouldn’t use a singular anon comment to frame the keto side of argument of course.
Ray said a diet of 50% calories from fat can be fine, while also advocating low fat many times, or high starch consumption can be fine, while generally advocating to avoid starch. He experimented with higher protein and low protein. He advocated some get their protein from potato juice. He said a vegetarian diet could work; Of course we know he thought vegetarianism was silly and that red meat and animal products were supreme. There never was a Ray Peat diet.
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@LetTheRedeemed
What is a diet?
What we should collectively do is discuss the best arguments of the adverse party, this is rarely done. The question is: is a "sustainable" keto diet possible, or are there better keto diets than others? Moore's specific case is of no utility here. Same for what keto influencers think.
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@NNight those are all good ideas, and Ray, Danny, Jay Feldman, and Kyle Mamounis have all done high level deconstructions of keto theory, but I reserve the right to point out keto’s utter incompetence addressing what is going on with their failures like myself and many others, including Jimmy Moore.
When I say “influencer,” I don’t mean TikTok body builders, I mean the Doctors who popularized the belief that CICO takes a back seat to ketosis, making keto widespread and popular amongst laymen, like Dr Ken Berry, Dr Berg and others who were pitched by many respectable members of the community, and by themselves, as authorities on the “science.”
I felt best on high dairy fat keto, but couldn’t lose weight. So I went with low-fat for the original purpose of doing keto in the first place; this worked until it didn’t — then fasting — which just had to get longer and longer until it stopped working.
If what you’re trying to get me to say, is that keto advocates have a wack-a-mole understanding of physiology and biology, then I’ll say that lol
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@GreekDemiGod said in High Metabolism Keto possible?:
@Mulloch94 amber o’Hearn said that cortisol is not elevated in ketosis, only when in a state of hypoglycaemia.
And it’s glucagon that is elevated.I don't really see how it's biochemically possible to elevate glucagon without also elevating cortisol to some certain degree. When the adrenagenic (set in motion by adrenaline) response to beta oxidation causes increases in glucagon, glucagon activates the HPA axis to release ACTH which signals cortisol.
Perhaps you could argue the physiological insulin resistance caused by ketosis might blunt cortisol to a certain degree. Think of guys like Shawn Baker, who has 120 fasting blood glucose. But even in those cases, the glucose has to be coming from somewhere. Either it making it from tearing down lean tissues, or the subject is actually eating enough protein to stimulate glucose creation from dietary amino acids. But I think both muscle catabolism and gluconeogenesis need cortisol.
I have seen certain studies that showed a very low protein diet can blunt the ACTH response in the HPA. Been a while since I looked at those, but I'm pretty sure they were normal carbohydrate based diets. But perhaps it can occur to some degree (probably to a lesser extent though) in a very low protein ketogenic based diet. Which isn't that common tbh. Most keto bros end up eating more protein than they realize.
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Tucker goodrich (what a name) is an interesting specimen in this space as well.
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These lab results don’t always tell the whole story.
I’m naturally at 800 - 900 total T, tsh of around 1.5, free T at 3%, T3 in the upper range, waking temp of 98.6, prolactin at 6, perfect heart function shown on EKG and echo, and I still feel like complete ass.
Keto, carnivore, “Peaty”, fasting, frequent feeding, no improvement with any sort of diet.
Point of the anecdote: blood tests aren’t everything. Friends of mine with T in the 400’s are bouncing around with shit eating grins while I’m barely awake.
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@Mallard6146 I believe the Peatosphere has talked for a while about how blood tests can look favorable while tissue levels can be where the problem lies.
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@Mallard6146 do you have an idea of why you struggle?
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Unfortunately no. I think it’s a genetic issue, as my dad is similar (high T, perfect labs, but gut issues and low energy).
