White tongue
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Vitamin K2 is important for the oral microbiota, probably due to its effect on saliva pH. This is why it's also important for the dental health.
"It is not presently known how saliva is connected to K2, but it has been associated with increased inorganic phosphate, the buffering agent, which leads to decreasing counts of lactobacillus acidophilus⁵. This would be indicative of an increasing pH or less acid saliva since lactobacillus thrive at lower pH levels"
Southward K. A hypothetical role for vitamin K2 in the endocrine and exocrine aspects of dental caries. Med Hypotheses. 2015;84(3):276-280. doi:10.1016/j.mehy.2015.01.011
Good things are immeasurably costly
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You already mentioned this, but it's interesting how drinking excess water dries the mouth.
Water is a Newtonian fluid because the viscosity doesn’t change with increasing shear. In contrast, saliva, despite being composed of 99% water, is described as a non-Newtonian fluid because the viscosity decreases with increasing shear. In practice, this allows saliva to be easily spread on the oral surfaces as well as to be retained and not easily washed off oral surfaces. This is an important function for saliva because the oral mucosal surfaces are the main site for the interaction with the microorganisms in the mouth (Dewhirst et al. 2010). The highest shear rates in the mouth occur during eating and swallowing. These high shear rates aid in maintaining a constant flow of saliva from where it enters the mouth (ductal openings) to the back of the throat (for swallowing). The constant movement of saliva is important for the removal of bacteria, the pH buffering of saliva, and oral health generally.
Carpenter GH. The secretion, components, and properties of saliva. Annu Rev Food Sci Technol. 2013;4:267-276. doi:10.1146/annurev-food-030212-182700
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@PrinceMyshkin expand if you’re narrow
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@buckminster I do eat white rice and we’ll cooked potatoes on a weekly basis. This could definitely be a contributing factor but I have a hard time eliminating starch completely, potatoes digest very well and make me feel good.
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@skylark I do take kuinone sublingually, perhaps swishing it around mouth/teeth/gums could be therapeutic for oral health.
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@PrinceMyshkin Have some Greco Gum myself, and aside from being a bit expensive I think is pretty decent. Honestly I think it's less the gum specifically and more that it keeps antimicrobial substances in the mouth proper for a while and stimulates saliva production.
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@PrinceMyshkin It is a rip off! just find the cheapest option online. very little difference in quality, as anything called 'masticha' or 'mastic' gum must be harvested on the same island from the same type of tree.
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@PrinceMyshkin Oregano oil in a dropper, directly on tongue, couple times a day. It burns, but working for me
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Put a piece of (at least 90%) dark chocolate in your mouth and let it slowly melt, do not chew it. It will clear your tongue.
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@oliveoil anecdotally, this just seems to work, but feels more cosmetic than actually addressing the underlying issue? Or do you notice sustained relief? Curious what the mechanism of action would be from the chocolate!!
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I believe it to be a systemic issue, and for it to go away you can't approach it with a magic bullet that merely eliminates the present white substance for a day or two or even a week, only to see it come back.
In my case, I have seen my white tongue become less white but never reach the pinkness I see in my cats' tongues. I think it is fungal.
I think fungus has a propensity to spread into a thin net of a web, just like in when it is in soil. It covers the tongue, and it also covers the scalp (which I believe causes dandruff). I have them both, but notice when my scalp goes the seborrheic dermatitis - free, I also have less white tongue. And this always corresponds to the time when my wbc in my CBC (complete blood count) is lower, after I have taken some antibacterials (herbs, essential oils, or chemicals such as copper acetate) followed up by antifungals (turpentine essential oils). Without antifungals, taking antibiotics/antibacterials would somehow cause a higher amount of eosinophils in subsequent CBC tests that indicate a higher fungal (or fungal parasite) presence that would also result in my scalp becoming resurgent with seborrheic dermatitis popping left and right.
Moreover, I would find my platelet count go higher each time I see my eosinophils go down signifying a lower fungal load. I believe it's because platelets have an immune function in destroying fungus and is expended in the process.
The microbiome in my blood and its vessels have its own microbiome that is separate from that of the gut, but not altogether distinct like there is a Chinese wall between them.
I believe that the microbiome in my blood and vessels were infected when I developed periodontitis in my gums, and there was plenty of time for the periodontal bacteria to translocate to my blood vessels (years in fact) before periodontal infection went from stealth mode to being finally expressed as bleeding gums and loose teeth. By then the infection would see bacterial colonies lodged in the vessel walls, and over time this colony would morph into a microbiome that has more and more of a fungal component. The fungus would even morph into a fungal parasite that would enter red blood cells and feed on it's iron and cause red blood cells to hemolyze, and with having a food source, it would continue to multiply.
The higher the fungal presence internally in our system, the thicker and whiter the white tongue would be.
It was only after In began to actively reduce my fungal load, mainly to lower blood pressure, that I began to see my tongue become more pink as the white coating for thinner.
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
@thebodyelectric_ It lasts for a while, but it doesn't fix the underlying issue. Dark chocolate has pretty amazing properties.
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@yerrag And how did you do that
. Actively reduce your fungal load that is , hehe. -
Gentian violet is an old treatment used for thrush in babies and breastfeeding mothers. Supposedly particularly effective for thrush but the downsides include purple staining of the mouth/tongue for at least a few days and some concerns for safety were raised somewhat recently, but not sure how legitimate they are.
https://zero.sci-hub.st/4069/234469f8ed59d7f63c81faee58c9b3bc/faber1925.pdf?download=true
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I used artemisia annua extract or turpentine or suppositories made of essential oils that have antifungal properties. Not together, but separately.
The art annua extract I made mixing 700mg of gin with dried artemisia annua (as fresh ones are not available) in a bucket covered in newspaper of sackcloth to allow it to breathe over 10 days, after which I will strain the liquid. I would take 35ml each day over a week or two.
For turpentine, I would take a teaspoon of it poured over a teaspoon of brown sugar (or a cube of it if available) and down it with water. For a week or two.
Using a suppository I would use it for a week. It is more involved as I had to order suppository molds and a few organic essential oils.
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@yerrag Fungal and bacterial white tongue are simply different things. and it's easy to differentiate. Google it!!!!
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@CO3 If you could write a sentence to explain it briefly, and post a link that would spare me the hassle of using Google. I don't trust it and give Google search results to hand me an answer that involves some sort of semblance of truth.
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
@yerrag In general I can tell you: it's bacterial. It almost always is.
People like the idea of having a 'fungal' infection. This is the commodification of disease. People love having something cool. They think they're in a zombie movie.
Took me 10 seconds to find. Nothing conspiratory about it. Oral thrush is easy to identify. White coating caused by bacterial activity (sometimes turns slightly yellow, smells bad, there's no empty spots on it etc) is actually harder to solve. Candida can probably be nuked by simply taking sulphur.
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@CO3 I respect your belief in what Google can easily find for you and you being given to accept it. It's much easier to believe something that is well illustrated by a great graphic designer.
But I can only share what I discover myself, and I will say it is anecdotal, and that it is my experience, and I won't force fit you into my experience. I won't pretend to tell you that it "almost always" is fungal- as I can only make myself less credible in my being presumptuous.
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
@yerrag I found all this out through my own experience, as I've had both conditions and it's very simple to differentiate if you're not an American whose brain is wrecked by advertisements and the trauma of circumcision. I've made posts on twitter outlining the differences using my own photographs. It would just be useless to use them since I would have to look for them and the same information is to be found on Google. You think it's all a big conspiracy? When they diagnose oral thrush they're just making something up, there's no fungus to be found or when they do, it was planted by a federal agent?
You're dirt stupid. I would rather die than live one day with a brain as useless as yours. Go fuck yourself.
