Experiments with transdermal hormones
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@alfredoolivas said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
That's a good plan, I would take it orally though, not transdermally.
Why?
Earlier in this thread Brightside explained the benefits of transdermal application over oral:
Few reasons. For me, injection seems like a primitive method, while topical is a much more elegant solution. But the general reasons would be:
risk of infection
introducing needless PUFAs
long term suppression and need for PCT to stop
more of a commitment/big deal to do (buying potentially contaminated UGL gear or going to a TRT clinic)
more often a need for AI (since topical generates more DHT)Additionally, this is only for TRT, but people might want to use other hormones like P5, P4, DHEA, DHT, Exe, 5aDHP, etc. Using topically is convenient and can offer a high absorption compared to oral, or it can provide an alternate metabolism. (like in the case of DHEA or T).
I like these benefits, but I have 0 experience with any of this so I am open to any ideas.
As for the Vitamin E I have is from NOW. I know its not the best but I don't mind it for a first try. Next time I might try this as it was recommended to me by a fellow peater.
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@Crypt-Keeper Thanks I'll look through it.
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@Uncover Well said.
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I mix progesterone with vitamin E powder and some drops of coconut oil.
I don't make a solution to store. I simply put the day's ingredients on a spoon, mix with a finger for 2 seconds, and apply directly to my gums.
I store coconut oil in this dropper container
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0BY8Y6S8Z/I use this Vitamin E powder (the capsules are easy to open)
https://www.timehealth.co.uk/product/vitamin-e-complex/ -
@Kilgore vitamin d, especially micellised vitamin D, would amplify the mixture a lot
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@Kilgore Ray said only 20% of vitamin E is absorbed when applied topically. However, he claimed that steroids dissolved in vitamin E have close to 100% absorption when taken orally. This is why he always referred to oral administration when referring to Progest E.
Topical application of steroids dissolved in vitamin E does have the benefit of slow, sustained absorption. However, if you wish to absorb a desired dose of steroids, such as 10mg of testosterone, you will need to apply 5x more solution because only 20% will be absorbed; this would require you to use 5x more steroids and 5x more vitamin E, and funnily enough, using 5x more vitamin E is the main issue here, because vitamin E is an expensive solvent and applying large amounts of vitamin E oil, is very tricky due to it creating oily skin (as it is not readily absorbable, compared to ethanol or DMSO).
Vitamin E "Oil" from NOW. has 510mg of alpha-tocopherol per 1ml, so you can probably dissolve 50-100mg of steroids in there, per ml, with ease. The NOW Vitamin E "Liquid" has 300mg of alpha-tocopherol per 1 ml, so you can probably dissolve 30-60mg of steroids per ml of oil with ease.
The NOW Vitamin E-Oil with "Mixed Tocopherols" has a 58mg amount of alpha-tocopherol per ml; I don't know how much of the other isomers it has, such as gamma-tocopherol, so I wouldn't use that immediately. I am sure NOW customer service will tell you how much total mixed tocopherols is contained within a serving.
The product that you linked me, is 100% tocopherol solution; very good, much better value than NOW products. A way to see the concentration of vitamin E oil, inside a product is to see the IU per ounce. This product has 42,500 IU of d-alpha tocopherol per oz, which means that there is 28,475mg of d-alpha tocopherol per oz (multiply IU by 0.67 to convert to milligrams). So it is pure tocopherol, and it says also so in the ingredients list.
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would the vitamin E powder dissolved in ethanol produce the same results as fat soluble vitamin e?
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@wester130 I have no idea how soluble steroids are in the artificial vitamin E esters dissolved in ethanol. I have used artificial vitamin E, in the form of dl alpha-tocopherol oil (the natural alpha tocopherol is d alpha tocopherol), and it worked. It had a bad taste, whereas mixed tocopherols taste okay.
My advice is don’t cheap out, use the tried and tested natural tocopherol oils, you can find sources on this thread.
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@alfredoolivas Thanks. My main concern is the long term suppression and need for PCT to stop part really.
I might even just make 2 different solutions; one to apply topically (T,DHT) and one to take orally (DHEA,Progesterone,Pregnenolone).
@alfredoolivas said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
Vitamin E "Oil" from NOW. has 510mg of alpha-tocopherol per 1ml, so you can probably dissolve 50-100mg of steroids in there, per ml, with ease.
I have a couple bottles of those. I haven't ordered the powders yet since PPL is out of stock on DHT.
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@Kilgore I get you. Long-term suppression only occurs with steroids that are esterified and have half-lives of up to weeks. Bio-identical hormones like DHEA, Pregnenolone, DHT and T, all have half-lives of around 20 minutes (even though the effects last for around a day people say anecdotally )
Short-term suppression of testosterone production occurs because increased levels of androgens (and their metabolites, such as estrogens) bind to pituitary receptors, reducing luteinising hormone (LH) signals from the brain. That’s all. The testicles remain undamaged; the suppression is simply due to elevated androgen and estrogen activity at the pituitary.
Once the androgen is discontinued, it leaves the body, and the pituitary resumes normal function, restoring natural testosterone production.
The exception is if the androgen use has caused damage to organs or organ systems. In such cases, structural changes may occur, leading to permanently reduced testosterone levels. This type of damage typically results from steroid abuse. On the other hand, TRT, when properly managed, can actually support and heal the body and its organ systems.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00365517709100649
"The effects of a one-month course of treatment with a p͟o͟t͟e͟n͟t͟ anabolic steroid, methandienone (5 and 10 mg daily), and a very weak androgen and hormone precursor, dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (DHEAS, 20 and 40 mg daily) and placebo on plasma testosterone, LH and FSH levels, red cell volume and red cell 2,3-diphosphoglycerate (2,3-DPG) concentration in endurance sportsmen were studied using a double-blind test system. A highly significant decrease in mean plasma testosterone was observed after the 5 and 10 mg methandienone regimen (66 and 73%). Treatment with 40 mg of DHEAS decreased mean testosterone levels by 41% (not statistically significant). P͟r͟e͟-͟t͟e͟s͟t͟ ͟t͟e͟s͟t͟o͟s͟t͟e͟r͟o͟n͟e͟ ͟l͟e͟v͟e͟l͟s͟ ͟w͟e͟r͟e͟ ͟r͟e͟a͟t͟t͟a͟i͟n͟e͟d͟ ͟a͟b͟o͟u͟t͟ ͟1͟0͟ ͟d͟a͟y͟s͟ ͟a͟f͟t͟e͟r͟ ͟t͟h͟e͟ ͟e͟n͟d͟ ͟o͟f͟ ͟t͟h͟e͟ ͟t͟r͟e͟a͟t͟m͟e͟n͟t͟ ͟p͟e͟r͟i͟o͟d͟ ͟w͟i͟t͟h͟ ͟t͟h͟e͟ ͟h͟i͟g͟h͟e͟r͟ ͟d͟o͟s͟e͟s͟ ͟o͟f͟ ͟b͟o͟t͟h͟ ͟c͟o͟m͟p͟o͟u͟n͟d͟s͟, while 2–6 weeks afterwards a significant over-compensation in mean plasma testosterone levels was observed."
This is a study with a really toxic anabolic steroid, methandienone / Dianabol, and once the drug left the system, within 10 days, LH and testosterone levels returned back to normal.
@Kilgore said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
I haven't ordered the powders yet since PPL is out of stock on DHT.
PPL stocks DHEA, progesterone, and pregnenolone at great prices, with DHEA available for just 80 cents per gram. Interestingly, their pregnenolone has a tested purity of 99.84%, which is nearly as high as the 99.9% purity standard from the past, back when pregnenolone was considered of higher quality and less prone to issues.
These days, most pregnenolone on the market has a purity of about 99.3%, and some claim this slight drop has led to problems. Whether or not that’s true is unclear, but that's what Danny Roddy claimed on Twitter.
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Progesterone and DHEA both convert to DHT. I was talking to a guy who was taking DHEA and Pregnenolone 1:1 and said it had positive effects on him.
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How is your experiment @metabolicmilk ?
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@Kilgore this man ripped off pansterone and sold it.
the reviews are good though, even doubled Testosterone in one person
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@wester130 At first circa October of 2023, that immitation product was even called "pansterone" and his whole website was called "pansterone.com". I wouldn't trust that company, given he was trying to impersonate IdeaLabs. Just my personal opinion.
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@alfredoolivas i agree
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I've finally gotten around to trying T in 95% alcohol + IPM. Started with 50mg T. I'll check in later if I notice anything.
Only thing different so far vs. DMSO is that I don't notice any crystals on my skin after drying, and of course none of the nasty DMSO smell. So I think that's a good start.
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Looks like 70% alcohol + 30% IPM doesn't allow for T to penetrate the skin in my case. Same as DMSO. It also dries incredibly fast (within seconds). I could try throwing some MCT oil in there to prevent the quick drying but I doubt it would make a difference for penetration.
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@Crypt-Keeper It's probably the concentrations you use in DMSO; I use 5% DHT in DMSO (50 mg DHT per ml of DMSO), and it absorbs perfectly fine, no crystals. T seems to be a lot less soluble in DMSO than it is in ethanol
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@alfredoolivas I've tried the following:
- 50mg DHT / ml DMSO
- 100mg T / ml DMSO
- 100mg T / ml 95% alcohol
Both DMSO solutions leave visible crystals / white residue on the skin after drying. The alcohol solution didn't have any visible crystals on the skin after drying, but there is residue on my dark-colored undershirt.
In all cases the solutions were completely clear (no crystals) in the dropper bottle, so I think they're being dissolved well.
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Okay, either DMSO doesn't work well or DMSO solutions are hard to heat up to the point where you can dissolve the hormones. Either way, this is a valuable lesson. Thanks for sharing.
Here is my method if you are interesteed: I put 1500mg of DHT inside a 30ml Idealabs dropper bottle, and using a funnel, I put 33 grams (30 ml) of DMSO inside the bottle too. I simply heat up the bottle for 12 seconds using a 1000W microwave, and it comes out maybe 60-70 degrees celsius and perfectly dissolved; I shine my light from the phone, through the bottom of the bottle, and if you look down the neck of the bottle, into the liquid, the light illuminates any undissolved particles if there are any.
