Dht, testosterone pre workout...
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@sushi_is_cringe Testosterone falling is worse than LH and FSH falling. It is a sign that the gonads aren't working properly, whereas LH and FSH falling are simply a sign that the pituitary detects there is too many androgens.
Anavar blocks cortisol receptor transcription, via activating the androgen receptor. Androgens in general are antagonistic to cortisol, via activating the androgen receptor. D-Bol is likely anti-catabolic too, despite increasing cortisol levels. Only trenbolone, and M-Tren, directly binds to and blocks the glucocorticoid receptor as far as I know.
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@alfredoolivas hmmmm... interdasting.... I think the point is that dbol is easy to recover from cause lh fsh remains high. so no pct needed for 4-6 week cycles, just stop taking dbol. I imagine with enough pregnenolone recovery would be even easier.
I am told dbol and halotestin are similar in this regard
idk about anavar in this regard but I know it's not recommended because it can cause hair shedding.
the hair safe steroids I am told of are nandrolone (especially deca because longer ester makes it more hair safe) , dbol, and halo. of those, I think I read that dbol and halo aren't really requiring pct.
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@alfredoolivas Pretty sure that fluoxymesterone (Halotestin) increases cortisol fairly strongly despite being a strong androgen.
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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Maybe cyproheptadine could help you out if apetite remains an issue
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@sushi_is_cringe If you are interested in cycling D-Bol/methandienone, this study is helpful; it certainly seems possible to not have to do no PCT afterwards yes. However, in this study low doses of D-Bol were used.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00365517709100649
"The effects of a one-month course of treatment with a p͟o͟t͟e͟n͟t͟ anabolic steroid, methandienone (5 and 10 mg daily), and a very weak androgen and hormone precursor, dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (DHEAS, 20 and 40 mg daily) and placebo on plasma testosterone, LH and FSH levels, red cell volume and red cell 2,3-diphosphoglycerate (2,3-DPG) concentration in endurance sportsmen were studied using a double-blind test system. A highly significant decrease in mean plasma testosterone was observed after the 5 and 10 mg methandienone regimen (66 and 73%). Treatment with 40 mg of DHEAS decreased mean testosterone levels by 41% (not statistically significant). P͟r͟e͟-͟t͟e͟s͟t͟ ͟t͟e͟s͟t͟o͟s͟t͟e͟r͟o͟n͟e͟ ͟l͟e͟v͟e͟l͟s͟ ͟w͟e͟r͟e͟ ͟r͟e͟a͟t͟t͟a͟i͟n͟e͟d͟ ͟a͟b͟o͟u͟t͟ ͟1͟0͟ ͟d͟a͟y͟s͟ ͟a͟f͟t͟e͟r͟ ͟t͟h͟e͟ ͟e͟n͟d͟ ͟o͟f͟ ͟t͟h͟e͟ ͟t͟r͟e͟a͟t͟m͟e͟n͟t͟ ͟p͟e͟r͟i͟o͟d͟ ͟w͟i͟t͟h͟ ͟t͟h͟e͟ ͟h͟i͟g͟h͟e͟r͟ ͟d͟o͟s͟e͟s͟ ͟o͟f͟ ͟b͟o͟t͟h͟ ͟c͟o͟m͟p͟o͟u͟n͟d͟s͟, while 2–6 weeks afterwards a significant over-compensation in mean plasma testosterone levels was observed."
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@jamezb46 I was talking about blocking cortisol at the receptor level. Yes, I expect many of them to increase cortisol due to 11 beta HSD 2 inhibition and AcTH being release, but overall, they are all anti-catabolic; fluoxymesterone actually binds to and antagonises the glucocorticoid receptor, amongst other anti-glucocorticoid mechanisms it may have.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/173192/
"The synthetic androgen fluoxymesterone and the hormone testosterone displayed Ki values of 7.5 X 10(-6) M and 1 X 10(-5) M, respectively, for the inhibition of [3H]dexamethasone binding in muscle cytosol. On the basis of competition experiments it is postulated that interaction of androgens with glucocorticoid receptors prevents the binding of glucocorticoids and might be responsible in part for the anabolic effects of pharmacologic doses of androgens in muscle."
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just learned halo doesnt lower testosterone. my friend says 4-6 week cycles with 7-10 days off between is totally fine for dbol or halo solo and reccomends these over nandrolone now. the drawback is potential appetite supression from orals
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@alfredoolivas apparently even 60mg per day dbol is ok
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@sushi_is_cringe Okay but Halostestin and DBol are extremely liver toxic right? You have to take proper time off, blood work and recovery to make sure your liver is okay. It seems silly to only care so much about LH and FSH and your gonads, and then ignore their toxic effects in other organs.
Furthermore, they all inhibit testosterone synthesis whilst you are on them, so testosterone derived neurosteroids such as 3a-Androstanediol and Androsterone will be depleted if you run orals by themselves.
And not to mention, the mental effects could potentially be very unpleasant and even affect your life negatively.
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@alfredoolivas no theres no liver toxicity even in high doses used for 2 years straight in medicine the dose is 200mg cant remember if this is halo or dbol
secondly halo doesnt lower test
thirdly mostly mood issue is mild euphoria
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@sushi_is_cringe Halo does lower test, and it's crazy to say there is no risks of mental issues, but I actually investigated the liver side effects of Dianabol, and you may have a point.
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@sushi_is_cringe
Yes, I think this is right regarding dbol and halo, but there’s some complications. Because halo is expensive to make, you have to be quite sure that what you’re getting is real halo because there’s a higher chance it’s being faked.
And dbol is probably good at 10-20 mg day but there’s the risk of increased BP and the methyl estradiol it produces is known to be harmful. It might not be an issue at a low dose but something to keep in mind.
There are also studies showing that Anavar is non-suppressive at 20mg/day. The same pattern with Dbol in the study I posted before: LH, FSH slightly decrease, testosterone decreases slightly, liver enzymes not significant affected.
Also, if dbol has this safety profile then why use it instead of tbol, which is basically the same thing but with zero estrogen conversion. I guess price if that’s an issue because dbol is generally cheaper but I’d just rather go with tbol.
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@jamezb46 the two major sources have checked out for halo being legit
not sure exactly about tbol but i assume it is probably riskier for hair and lack of estrogen conversion might cause problems but that latter statement might contradict what is already discussed and acknowledged in here about the potential for or not for shutdown aspects
im lazy reading all the infos about anabolics
, its one of those things that im relying on others (trust le experts) for as the information processing i do is for other subjects as id rather not study another topic just now so thats why you can see me
posting “ive heard” “ive been told” and not referencing studies. im going off taeian’s information , and i acknowledge there’s stuff his views dont align with bioenergetic principles but i think specifically his information on the best anabolics (with the caveat hair safe and relatively health safe) is probably correct -
@alfredoolivas i see a couple people posting about halo mood issues but generally it is overall positive in a sample sizes of probably a couple dozen people
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@sushi_is_cringe so idk why i said halo doesnt suppress T , if i read it incorrectly
but what i just read now says it takes about a week for T to come back after halo cycle of 4-6 weeks
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@sushi_is_cringe
Well the thing is there aren't any studies to read about tbol, for example. Nor are there any coming because pharma companies are no longer interested (if they ever were) in producing AAS that are ergogenic.
So, all we can do is go off the limited information we do know from studies (ex. Dbol and Anavar have shown to be minimially suppressive) and look at people's experiences.
Based on my reading of people's reports with Tbol, I would say that they generally report that its less problematic than Dbol, and the gains they make on it they report as being more "keepable" than those with Dbol.
One of the few scientific studies I was able to find on the specific effects of Dbol on skeletal muscle was that it did in fact hypertrophy it, but the muscle that was grown on Dbol was not the same as the "dry" muscle that is usually built: It had different amount of potassium and it is indeed accurate to characterize as the bodybuilders do as "water weight" or "muscle fullness" and not dry tissue.
Although there aren't studies on Tbol (or if there are I have no idea how to get them - it was developed in secrecy by the East Germans ffs), based on people's reports, it does seem that Tbol specifically avoids the issue of gaining only "water weight" in the muscle as opposed to real dry tissue.
That's why I would go with the Tbol personally but it Dbol works for you go for it.
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@sushi_is_cringe ok so the test time for recovering t off halo is 7 days so they say it takes 7 days but its likely it recovers the next day apparently. a bit confusing messaging on halo in this regard but it sounds like any sort of shutdown is practically a non issue
dbol on other hand most definitely does shutdown T but recovery is quick after discontinuation with 7-10 days showinf T coming back
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@sushi_is_cringe
Based on the studies I've read on Anavar, Dbol, and the one you just posted, they all do the same thing.
While the synthetic androgen is present in meaningful concentrations
LH, FSH do not decrease significantly,
Testosterone decreases by around half but is NOT zero
After discontinuing the synthetic androgen
Testosterone production rebounds relatively quickly (days) to baseline WHERE IT REMAINS, and there may even be supercompensation
So, what's problematic about this? While you're on it, who cares if endogenous production goes down? The net effect is a supraphysiological amount of androgens.
After you come off your own production comes back, so as far as I'm concerned, this is all we were ever hoping for.
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@jamezb46 Great comment.
