Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?
-
I thinks it's an interesting thought. But I don't really see the upside here. It mainly appeals to people because it's mysterious and hard to obtain etc.
I get it... the first email I send Ray was about an obscure progesterone/DHT mix of a designer steroid , which I'm surprised he even replied to
But if you want DHT with a longer half life you can use 11ketoDHT.I still think 11ketoT is an interesting option on paper. IIRC I saw a study suggesting it doesn't even aromatize.
-
@T-3 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:
I've seen the hepatoxicity concerns raised numerous times about oral androsterone on RPF/LTF (e.g. on the androsterone mega thread). What does everyone think about oral androsterone at 4 to 8 drops daily? Would that be "torching the liver"?
Have you looked for studies on that ?
Androsterone is an FXR agonist, which are used to treat liver disease. So if anything it should help the liver.
-
@Mauritio 11-keto steroids are extremley interesting - 11-keto testosterone can get reduced back into 11-hydroxybeta-testosterone, which is very similar structurally to cortisol - it has the same double bond on position 3-4, the 3 keto group and the 11 hydroxl group.
11 keto progesterone looks insane; it turns back into 11-hydroxybeta progesterone which is basically corticosterone without the OH at the top.
11 betahydroxy progesterone
corticosterone.This structural similarity will make it into an insane anti-glucocorticoid. Progesterone binds to the GR receptor with around 8% the binding affinity as cortisol.
it is known that the addition of a hydroxyl group at position 11, increases binding to the GR receptor. Fluoxymesterone has a hydroxyl group at position 11, and it binds to the GR stronger than testosterone.
It is structurally similar to dexamethesone
fluoxymesterone
dexamethesone
So 11 beta hydroxyprogesterone will probably be an even more strogner GR antagonist than progesterone is - 8% relative to cortisol is very high already.
-
Patrick arnold is still selling 11-KT.
Pretty expensive, but here it is
https://prototypenutrition.com/collections/all-products/products/11-kt-spray-original-formula
-
@jamezb46 Really good doses, 250mg of 11-KT per dose, using alcohol based solvents! It's a massive bottle and a single dose is 50 sprays, it isn't clear how many doses are in a bottle though.
-
@jamezb46
Iron legion also sell it for much less.
https://iron-legion.com/products/xi-kt"Conversely, 11-KT did not activate estrogen receptor-mediated transactivation in aromatase-expressed MCF-7 cells, whereas testosterone did following conversion to estrogen. 11-KT did not affect the estrogen/estrogen receptor -mediated cell proliferation of MCF-7 cells. Furthermore, it significantly inhibited cell proliferation when androgen receptor was transfected into MCF-7 cells."
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/101/10/3582/2764896#:~:text=Conversely%2C 11-KT did,into MCF-7 cells.It also seems to be able to fill in for testosterone functionally. At least it does so when you chemically castrate men.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33974560/
-
@alfredoolivas 7.2 grams 11KT per bottle, 29 doses per bottle
-
What do you guys think of laxogenin?
Its very similar to diosgenin, which increases DHT and DHEA.
And its available for purchase. -
The paper you linked refers to the synthetic 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin.
That compound is different from the naturally occurring laxogenin, which is used in Chinese medicine.
In fact, the FDA has declared the sale of 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin (5AHL) in supplements to be illegal:
(https://www.usada.org/spirit-of-sport/illegal-ingredient-5-alpha-hydroxy-laxogenin-supplements/g)5AHL is thought to be synthesized from diosgenin, so perhaps that is where you're getting the association.
Now, although the study you linked was about the synthetic derivative, one thing did catch my eye about the structure of laxogenin.
Laxogenin
6-OXO
Notice how both compounds have a ketone group on position 6. The latter (6-OXO) is known to be an effective aromatase inhibitor and significantly increased the concentration of T and DHT when given in doses of 300 or 600 mg/day to men.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2100070/
The 6-OXO is a suicidal AI, and it's obvious that the 3 unsaturations in the A-ring allow it to have that property.
It is possible that Laxogenin might also function as an AI if somehow the necessary double bonds were introduced when it gets metabolized. I doubt that can happen though.
It is also possible that laxogenin also has its own anabolic or androgenic activity independent of aromatase inhibition.
-
@jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:
The paper you linked refers to the synthetic 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin.
Yes, that's what most people are referring to when they mention laxogenin
@jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:
In fact, the FDA has declared the sale of 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin (5AHL) in supplements to be illegal:
In Europe it's widely available. Just found one for 40€ . It just seems hit or miss if there's actually laxogenin in there .
@jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:
It is possible that Laxogenin might also function as an AI if somehow the necessary double bonds were introduced when it gets metabolized. I doubt that can happen though.
Im just going to try it out. Some people notice nothing , some say it's great.
-
Any reason to go with 5AHL over Tribulus Terrestris?
-
@Mauritio I believe the benefits might come from simply consuming high quantities of a fully saturated lipophilic compound, and its effects on the lipophilicty of the cell membrane.
If you are consuming hundreds of milligrams of this fully saturated lipohiloc molecule, there is a likely hood that it will have an affinity to the phospholipid bilayer and its presence will make it more lipophilic.
More lipophilic cell membranes increase the affinity and downstream conversion of steroids, increasing the 5-AR pool of steroids within the cell.
Me and @jamezb46 came up with some compelling studies to show that increasing lipophilicity of the cell increases uptake of steroids and their metabolism, and caffeine can do this in humans, as shown by caffeine increasing the concentration of anavar by 20x, increasing its half life & metabolism. Anecdotally, after drinking 7 tea spoons of instant coffee mixed with coffees throughout the day, I have noticeably seen my muscles swell and look bigger as if I am on double the dose of testosterone.
-
@jamezb46 For me? I've tried tribulus and didn't like it.
-
I thought it was a slightly unsaturated molecule ...
Nice theory. But couldn't all of this be explained by caffeine increasing liver health, leading to faster(first pass)metabolism ?
-
@Mauritio Liver health takes a while to improve right? Furthermore, this involved a single administration of a normal dose of caffeine to a regular caffeine consumer. Any potential improvements in liver health would have already occurred due to the subject’s habitual caffeine consumption. However, these effects did not manifest in the absence of caffeine.
It's saturated, has a bit of a mental structure.
-
I think that the lipophilic derivative of caffeine, pentoxifylline should be even better in that regard than caffeine.
Pentoxifylline
Caffeine
-
@alfredoolivas Its structure is similar to Brassinosteroids. Those are the active ingredients in "pine pollen" supplements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassinosteroid
-
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31381816/
Derivatives of brassinosteroids are known to be anti-estrogenic (studied for breast cancer)
-
@jamezb46
Well, 5a hydroxy laxogenin and laxogenin are brassinosteroids, so that makes them even more interesting with androgenic, and potential anti-estrogenic effects. They're basically plant anabolic steroids, leading to plant growth . -
"Brassinosteroids are plant-derived polyhydroxylated derivatives of 5a-cholestane, structurally similar to cholesterol-derived animal steroid hormones and insect ecdysteroids, with no known function in mammals. 28-Homobrassinolide (HB), a steroidal lactone with potent plant growth-promoting property, stimulated protein synthesis and inhibited protein degradation in L6 rat skeletal muscle cells..."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3177571/This brassinosteroid increases steroidogenic enzymes and testosterone.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23012313/