White tongue
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@oliveoil anecdotally, this just seems to work, but feels more cosmetic than actually addressing the underlying issue? Or do you notice sustained relief? Curious what the mechanism of action would be from the chocolate!!
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I believe it to be a systemic issue, and for it to go away you can't approach it with a magic bullet that merely eliminates the present white substance for a day or two or even a week, only to see it come back.
In my case, I have seen my white tongue become less white but never reach the pinkness I see in my cats' tongues. I think it is fungal.
I think fungus has a propensity to spread into a thin net of a web, just like in when it is in soil. It covers the tongue, and it also covers the scalp (which I believe causes dandruff). I have them both, but notice when my scalp goes the seborrheic dermatitis - free, I also have less white tongue. And this always corresponds to the time when my wbc in my CBC (complete blood count) is lower, after I have taken some antibacterials (herbs, essential oils, or chemicals such as copper acetate) followed up by antifungals (turpentine essential oils). Without antifungals, taking antibiotics/antibacterials would somehow cause a higher amount of eosinophils in subsequent CBC tests that indicate a higher fungal (or fungal parasite) presence that would also result in my scalp becoming resurgent with seborrheic dermatitis popping left and right.
Moreover, I would find my platelet count go higher each time I see my eosinophils go down signifying a lower fungal load. I believe it's because platelets have an immune function in destroying fungus and is expended in the process.
The microbiome in my blood and its vessels have its own microbiome that is separate from that of the gut, but not altogether distinct like there is a Chinese wall between them.
I believe that the microbiome in my blood and vessels were infected when I developed periodontitis in my gums, and there was plenty of time for the periodontal bacteria to translocate to my blood vessels (years in fact) before periodontal infection went from stealth mode to being finally expressed as bleeding gums and loose teeth. By then the infection would see bacterial colonies lodged in the vessel walls, and over time this colony would morph into a microbiome that has more and more of a fungal component. The fungus would even morph into a fungal parasite that would enter red blood cells and feed on it's iron and cause red blood cells to hemolyze, and with having a food source, it would continue to multiply.
The higher the fungal presence internally in our system, the thicker and whiter the white tongue would be.
It was only after In began to actively reduce my fungal load, mainly to lower blood pressure, that I began to see my tongue become more pink as the white coating for thinner.
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
@thebodyelectric_ It lasts for a while, but it doesn't fix the underlying issue. Dark chocolate has pretty amazing properties.
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@yerrag And how did you do that
. Actively reduce your fungal load that is , hehe. -
Gentian violet is an old treatment used for thrush in babies and breastfeeding mothers. Supposedly particularly effective for thrush but the downsides include purple staining of the mouth/tongue for at least a few days and some concerns for safety were raised somewhat recently, but not sure how legitimate they are.
https://zero.sci-hub.st/4069/234469f8ed59d7f63c81faee58c9b3bc/faber1925.pdf?download=true
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I used artemisia annua extract or turpentine or suppositories made of essential oils that have antifungal properties. Not together, but separately.
The art annua extract I made mixing 700mg of gin with dried artemisia annua (as fresh ones are not available) in a bucket covered in newspaper of sackcloth to allow it to breathe over 10 days, after which I will strain the liquid. I would take 35ml each day over a week or two.
For turpentine, I would take a teaspoon of it poured over a teaspoon of brown sugar (or a cube of it if available) and down it with water. For a week or two.
Using a suppository I would use it for a week. It is more involved as I had to order suppository molds and a few organic essential oils.
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@yerrag Fungal and bacterial white tongue are simply different things. and it's easy to differentiate. Google it!!!!
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@CO3 If you could write a sentence to explain it briefly, and post a link that would spare me the hassle of using Google. I don't trust it and give Google search results to hand me an answer that involves some sort of semblance of truth.
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
@yerrag In general I can tell you: it's bacterial. It almost always is.
People like the idea of having a 'fungal' infection. This is the commodification of disease. People love having something cool. They think they're in a zombie movie.
Took me 10 seconds to find. Nothing conspiratory about it. Oral thrush is easy to identify. White coating caused by bacterial activity (sometimes turns slightly yellow, smells bad, there's no empty spots on it etc) is actually harder to solve. Candida can probably be nuked by simply taking sulphur.
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@CO3 I respect your belief in what Google can easily find for you and you being given to accept it. It's much easier to believe something that is well illustrated by a great graphic designer.
But I can only share what I discover myself, and I will say it is anecdotal, and that it is my experience, and I won't force fit you into my experience. I won't pretend to tell you that it "almost always" is fungal- as I can only make myself less credible in my being presumptuous.
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
@yerrag I found all this out through my own experience, as I've had both conditions and it's very simple to differentiate if you're not an American whose brain is wrecked by advertisements and the trauma of circumcision. I've made posts on twitter outlining the differences using my own photographs. It would just be useless to use them since I would have to look for them and the same information is to be found on Google. You think it's all a big conspiracy? When they diagnose oral thrush they're just making something up, there's no fungus to be found or when they do, it was planted by a federal agent?
You're dirt stupid. I would rather die than live one day with a brain as useless as yours. Go fuck yourself.
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@CO3 I'm crying at brain wrecked by "trauma of circumcision", haha.
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@CO3 In my experience penicillin can get rid of it rather immediately, but then comes a point where it doesn't and then I have to not take it for a while and then it will get rid of it again but it always comes back so is just curious and trying to figure it out. It also seems to coincide with dandruff. Both things that I've never had before until I got them and they just haven't gone away for a while though they do ebb and flow.
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@thebodyelectric_ yeah it's similar for me. what keeps the white tongue at bay is scraping, oil pulling and cleaning molars with waterpik. But there's a more foundational reason. Do you eat liver often?
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@CO3 I don't really. I think perhaps I don't eat it often enough? I eat chicken livers probably every other month or so, sometimes more and sometimes less.
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@thebodyelectric_ I think we both probably have Toxin A deficiency
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@CO3
Now now, calm down. -
I have been looking for a solution as well. I made great strives by using some tools like carrot, button mushrooms, aspirin, doxy and penicillin-vk, avoiding starch. I made a big mistake by consuming a huge amount of white rice for a few days and it seems the intestinal bacteria has made a huge comeback.
I had stress/bruxism problems that disappeared a few months ago and they seem to have come back after the giga-starch consumption. I went for max dose cypro to curb the cortisol loop. Eating lots of mushrooms as well. But I think it might be useful to have a different approach.
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vIt might be useful to go the herbal route for a bit, it has shown to be more effective than some antibiotic treatments. This is one aspect I am considering, just need to source which herb(s) to use and in what formulation/protocol.
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@PrinceMyshkin said in White tongue:
I've tried the carrot salad, well cooked white button mushrooms and activated charcoal, but the white tongue persists. Only thing I haven't tried is low dose antibiotics but it seems excessive to try that just to get rid of the white tongue. Any thoughts?
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@PrinceMyshkin I have the same thing, started to happen about 7 years ago. I did notice increasing sensitivities to deodorants a little bit before the white tongue started to appear. Maybe 2 years after the white tongue I started to notice indentations around the tongue (scalloped tongue). Also, I tended to breath out of my mouth when sleeping and noticed my mouth became very dry and couldn't do that any longer.
I'm not sure what causes the white tongue, but might be related to mouth dryness.
