Posts made by basebolt

more gelatin maybe

@AstralPMP said in NAD Infusion Alternatives:

Have you tried NMN? I feel it has a slightly stronger effect than NR, however I have only taken NR orally in a capsule while I took NMN as a sublingual dissolvable tablet. There's probably no substitute for intravenous NAD but sublingual NMN supposedly enters the bloodstream directly.

Have not tried it yet

Here is a post I made about gelatin. I reference Haidut talking about nausea occuring at high levels of consumption and some other info.

https://bioenergetic.forum/post/14420

Apparently heavy metals may be a concern. Now Foods brand I would expect to have high standards around this.

there is also the potential for "paranasal" administration of NAD+ powder.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=jEw3Ff_o4PM&t=8937s

put NAD powder in some water with a pinch of baking soda. position yourself properly then tilt head back and put the solution into nose. hold that solution at the back of your throat/nasal cavity for twenty minutes with your head back.
note: I am not sure how safe it is. I have heard of cases of brain infection occuring through the nasal route.

personally I have done this a few times and am not comfortable with doing it more unless the NAD can be sterilized without destroying it

@Mulloch94 said in NAD Infusion Alternatives:

If raising NAD levels is your main goal then I wouldn't use the nicotonic acid version of B3 because the flushing is going to be a significant roadblock to you getting a therapeutic dose. NA is better for raising histamine and lowering methylation.

I think nicotinamide (niacinamide), or nicotinamide riboside, is the best oral version of B3 to raise NAD levels. (R) It seems to work well in pretty much every human study I've seen. But, I suppose the IV solution has a level of intensity that can't be matched with oral alternatives.

I have used niacinamide and NR. It seems like the nucleosides and or uric acid are the important factor in some cases. We know inosine favorably impacts the NAD/NADH ratio. We know Ray Peat was very favorable about uric acid being healthy, prometabolic, an important endogenous antioxidant, anti-inflammatory compound. I have heard that in an inflammatory state the NAD enzymes don't work as effectively as they should. Maybe a cocktail of powerful anti-inflammatories that reach the brain would be worth trying.

NAD infusions are being used for anxiety disorders, depression, substance use disorder, and more. Typically at these clinics it will be administered for six to ten days in a row. The time and monetary cost prohibit the accessibility of this treatment.

There have been reports of similar effects from niacin and niacinamide. However, there is a definite difference between the IV NAD and plain oral B3 vitamin. Personally, my anxiety and depression vanished for a few days on niacin then it came back.

The NAD is a molecule of B3 bound to adenosine. I took inosine, uridine, and caffeine. All related to adenosine and uric acid in the body. My depression began to lift dramatically. Suddenly I got kidney pain and vomitting and had to stop. That happened the second attempt too.

When IV NAD is administered, people feel a significantly elevated heartrate and tightness in the chest. This is the signiture effect of the treatment. If a molecule can be developed and taken orally to have this same effect, then we will know a mimetic for this treatment has been created.

Here are my current ideas:
Use DIY iontophoresis to trandermally absorb NAD powder. Drawback is potential heavy metal impurities like 0.01% aluminum contamination being absorbed which I am uncertain about.
Chemical synthesis of NAD prodrugs. Perhaps attaching NAD to adamantane or gaba, like picamilon with niacin.
My third idea is to take B3 alongside maybe an ethyl or ethyl ester form of adenosine or inosine. This could potentially avoid the nephrotoxic effect. Care should be taken around adenosine because it can shut down the heart when injected into circulation, ER doctors use this to normalize certain heart conditions.
Fourthly, baking soda may assist the kidneys with handling a large amount of oral inosine.

I took bulk supplement's calcium acetate for a while. Nothing notable to report, but I'm not very sensitive to things. One concern I have is the aluminum bags contaminating the powder.

A few times I tried making calcium acetate from vinegar and egg shells and was unsuccessful.

I personally use Redmond Real Salt (from Utah). Their salt rocks can be washed off, then dissolved, then filter the undissolved sediment off, then evoparate the water to get it solid again

google pink himalayan salt and microplastics. it seems contaminated due to plastic transport bags they use maybe

I remember reading somewhere that apple cider vinegar with each meal may get rid of it. There are ACV capsules, more convenient. I bet coconut oil with its antimicrobial properties would help too.

Ray Peat says the stomach and small intestine should be sterile so I bet he would encourage trying to get rid of h. pylori

@Mulloch94 said in DEPRESSION:

Sounds like you need to hit the "reset" button for a couple weeks. I would drop pretty much all the supplements. Focus on your diet, sleep, and activity. This is important to do because it sounds like it's impossible to really know what's effecting you positively or negatively. For one, hormones don't work instantly. It takes thyroid therapy at least a month to really start kicking in. Barnes suggested in his manual to stick with a certain dosage for 3-4 weeks before adding to it, because that's how long it takes to buildup.

I would recommend dropping everything for several weeks and letting yourself get back to baseline. In the meantime, focus on eating cleanly. Get protein, calcium, salt, and carbohydrate. Meat, fruits, dairy, eggs, and cooked vegetables. Eat calf liver once a week, and maybe some shellfish too (if you aren't allergic). Good fiber sources are oat bran, wheat bran, raw carrot, cooked button mushrooms, and berries.

Start monitoring your temps and pulse during this period. Both before and after your meals. This will give you a better ballpark estimate if you're a suitable candidate for thyroid therapy or not. Also take into consideration your bloodwork. Do you have high cholesterol, high tsh, etc. I know you said the tsh is normal, but that's why it's important to never rely on just one thing. Tsh can be normal or even low and still be low thyroid. Only then would it be advisable to start adding things and seeing how you respond. And don't add to many things too quickly. Just adding thyroid can take several weeks to "get right."

People rarely take the optimal dose the first time, and since it takes several weeks before you know how that dose will effect you, it's probably best to not be adding anything. How else will you know if it's helping when you add pregnenolone, or aspirin, or testosterone, etc during the same period? I highly advise avoiding the vitamin A detoxes as well. ESPECIALLY if you're on thyroid. I'm on thyroid, and I can physically feel it when I've gone too long without beef liver. You may or may not need vitamin D3 as well.

Also what is your life like? What I mean is, there's no "chemical" solution to a shitty life. We are social creatures, you should hangout with friends. If you don't have any, then you should put in effort to meet people. What do you like to do? Find people you can relate with, and they can relate to you.

ray peat recommended thyroid and b1 for depression. he also told a story about a cat eating a bunch of thyroid powder and panting and being happy. but dont some people experience heart arrhythmias and thyroid shrinkage side effects?

to me it seems thyroid could play a big role. is it possible to work up to extreme doses like 2,000 mcg t3 in order to try and experience relief of depression? i feel that may happen. if my body can tolerate it what is the exact harm, if you know? i have raw cabbage on hand in case it is needed. im also going to do my own reading on this. ive seen medical reports of 10,000 mcg accidental poisoning in several cases and they survive

i generally believe im going to have to find a chemical solution, at least temporarilly. unless i can join some amish community... i barely have the motivation to drive it is pretty bad

@Regina said in DEPRESSION:

You didn't mention numbers on the liver status.

ALT, AST, GGT are good. I do have a moderately fatty liver though. im not overweight

@Regina said in DEPRESSION:

Have you ever tried to run a course of minocycline?

no. but ive taken antibiotics before. orally and IV.

@Regina said in DEPRESSION:

Do you get enough gelatin? How is your diet? Do you live at any kind of elevation? Can you get out in the sun? Can you hike in nature?

ive experimented with gelatin. my diet changes a lot. sometimes i forget to eat for a few days due to low appetite. ive tried basing my diet on mostly milk and other times mostly beef. ive tried high sugar intake.

im at sea level

i inconsistently get sun. for a few months i spent hours outside. that was before i corrected my niacin deficiency though. i do feel like inadequate exposure to bright light could be negatively affecting me

ive tried walking in nature. not consistently though

@Regina said in DEPRESSION:

I'm not so sure very high doses of every vitamin makes sense. It's consistency

i struggle with consistency when i feel so bad

@PeaterDinklage said in DEPRESSION:

@basebolt Are you lifting?

not at the moment

@pittybitty that isn't something I've specifically tried yet. it's going on my list.

i need to figure it out. niacin cured me for a few days. years of dying from the deep depression vanished and i was normal again. that was months ago.

things ive tried
t3, up to very high doses
pregnenolone, just high dose a few times
progesterone, just high dose a few times
aspirin
cyproheptadine, low and very high dose, never tried prolonged use
bromantane and adamantane, at very high dose
inosine, two months @ 1.5 g
raw milk, raw liver, every vitamin at high dose, minerals, dietary shifts, bag breathing, change of setting three times

hsCRP good
ESR good
tsh and t4 good (don't know t3 or rt3)
testosterone low
prolactin good
cerruloplasmin good
ferritin lowish but acceptable (tried supplementing iron bc of this)
homocysteine good maybe actually low
dhea-s good
cortisol sometimes high sometimes good
insulin good
continual blood glucose good
temperatures low but good with thyroid supplements
heart rate 80 bpm but at times is erradic going to 100
echocardiogram healthy
o2 saturation throughout sleep is good
CT scan healthy

next
oral testosterone + DHT
10 days IV NAD (if I can ever afford it)
higher dose inosine
J-147

i believe i have major neuroinflammation occuring because cysteine creating glutathione helps me but there are downsides to this

very high dose inosine with uridine and caffeine felt like it was starting to cure me but I quickly would develop intense kidney pain and vomiting. it happened twice

Am I on the right road? Why do most things not effect me at all (cypro, t3, Diamant, hormones). i feel absurd like all motivation and mood is zapped out of me. feels like epigenetic torture

i've experienced it be corrected so at least I know I can likely become 100% in the future

I have heard of heavy metal concerns with mms. Haven't looked into the validity of it though

Haidut has mentioned nausea as a side effect of massive quantities of gelatin consumption.

Haidut:

Watch out for symptoms of nausea from too much gelatin. Back in revolutionary France it was tried as food for the poor and most people refused to eat more than 50g a day due to the overwhelming nausea it caused when eaten long term. Their health did improve, especially bone health and ability to do hard work, and the latter genuinely thrilled the nobility. But if you consider that attempts as a type of randomized uncontrolled trial, it seems that gelatin may have a sweet spot in dose. Not sure if it is 50g but when I tried eating nothing but gelatin as my protein I did get the nausea after a week of 128g (4 boxes of Knox gelatin) a day.

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/glycine-powerfully-lowers-cortisol.9512/#post-123529

Watch out for this. It is possible a good quality b complex or multi may prevent the nausea. Or nutrient dense foods.

Haidut says it may be a function of too low serotonin, though

I think it is more of an effect on lowering serotonin. Dopaminergic and anti-serotonin drugs all have nausea as side effects. Not sure hot to mitigate except to find experimentally your maximum dose at which you don't get nausea. I think adding theanine may help the nausea but for me this combination makes me fall asleep almost immediately.

Maybe you can augment the high gelatin with pure glycine powder. Glycine is one of the safest amino acids to take as a supplement according to Ray Peat.

I saw this in the same thread as above

Doses of 80-100g of glycine have been used to treat schizophrenics. I've personally experimented with taking 60g glycine in orange juice (I'm ~76kg), and the only ill effect was bowels moving too quickly for about half a day. However, for the next 3+ days, I felt extremely calm but alert, mentally sharp, and my temperature stayed high and stable. It did also seem like my muscle tone had an improved appearance, but it's hard to make that quantitative.

Dr Peat was against excitatory amino acids like tryptophan, aspartate, and cysteine. He also spoke against superphysiological antioxidants/reductants.

NAC acts as an antioxidant on its own and also generates glutathione. This study shows it helps boost brain glucose metabolism and cognition in MS patients.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7033492/

They did 50mg/kg infusions per week with oral supplementation inbetween, for two months.

This seems good. If NAC was bad, wouldn't cognition be worse and brain energy metabolism measured become worse?

I've heard Ray comment on the supposed pro-cognitive benefits of estrogen. He explained that cocaine boosts cognitive function yet you probably wouldn't want to chronically take it, just like estrogen.

Maybe this is the case with NAC too.

More for the case against it:
1.
I've seen some research showing at a high dose it could be neurotoxic but lower doses were neuroprotective.

There was a post on RPF I can't find that mentioned and linked to a research study showing negative effects of NAC on rodents' lungs when taken long-term.

3. Has a reputation for inducing anhedonia.

The case for NAC:
1.
Recently I found
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8813647/

Suggesting ascorbic acid could protect against potential neurotoxicity of NAC.

NAC is known to help OCD symptoms.

3. My personal experience of receiving 6 grams of NAC via IV. It had a miraculous effect on my atypical depression, similar to when I first started niacin. Only lasted a few hours though. Orally it doesn't do anything.

4. NAC is very effective in protecting the liver from toxins. It is very effective in helping reduce auditory damage and brain damage from battlefield trauma.

My conclusion:
Peat is generally right about it. Some chronic disease states and acute injury states may physiologically benefit from NAC but there are probably more bioenergetically-aligned things like progesterone + DHEA that would be better. In any case, detrimental effects can be offset by ascorbic acid (with pro-oxidizers like INOSINE), probably gelatin protein, and using the minimal effective dose for the shortest amount of time. These things are good to know when experimenting with it, as many people may be tempted to do.