High metabolism feeling lethargic rather than energetic?
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So recently I actually managed to get my temperature and heart rate to Peat recommended 98/98.6/85 while using NDT and it wasn't what I hoped it would be. I just felt uncomfortably hot and heavy. I still cannot sleep well (I hoped thyroid might solve my sleep issues) and I'm mostly tired and lethargic even though I'm not doing that much.
I also found that I cannot tolerate coffee any longer. I had this huge stress reaction to it: heart pounding, drenched in sweat, feeling like I had an oven inside me. That was a week and since then I have stopped NDT and I drink only weak tea.
Even more interestingly, over few last month my wife has achieved a similar metabolic improvement naturally, without using any exogenous hormones at all. Her waking temperatures (even during her period) are now over 98 and her resting HR hovers around 85. Yet instead of experiencing youthful high energy she's recently told me she now can feel just exactly how tired she is. She can also no longer tolerate coffee.
Is is possible our bodies simply cannot support such a high metabolic rate due to some deficiency? We are definitely deficient in vitamin D (mine is 24, hers 17, we now supplement 10k IU daily) and in iron (I know it's not Peaty, but I believe extremely low ferritin cannot be healthy). Is there something else that might be worth checking?
Or might it be the increased adrenaline sensitivity caused by thyroid hormone? Will the adrenaline levels drop in due time?
My wife thinks that after running on stress hormones for so long we might need more rest, to "pay the debt", so to speak. But how can I rest when I cannot sleep?
Has anybody experienced this? We have experienced many improvements from peating and it pains me to think we might have hit the upper limit and are bound to forever remain lethargic, dull, passive mules.
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@DonkeyDude I think could be high prolactin from low vitamin D and or Iron.
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@DonkeyDude
Ensure adequate intake of B vitamins, zinc, choline and electrolytes (calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium) to support metabolic function, especially with NDT / T3 / coffee. Boosting the metabolic rate calls for adequate nutrients to support it, and boosting it (using NDT or caffeine) without adequate nutrients can potentially lead to deficiencies.This link might provide useful insights...
https://www.functionalps.com/blog/2014/06/04/coffee-done-right-tips-to-help-avoid-coffee-intolerance/ -
I think you still have cellular hypothyroidism. Something is blocking from thyroid hormone exerting its effect on your cells.
That can happen in people who take thyroid hormones, but still have unresolved health issues - digestion, liver, mold intoxication...etc.Oh, and you need high Vitamin D and high Iron stores for thyroid meds to work properly.
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@DonkeyDude how long did you have temp fixed for was it 1 month +? . (yeh the coffee response is likely from increased adrenaline response / from more receptors, apparently supposed to drop over weeks, upping salt intake is key during that). i wonder if people can get heat response from TH action in brown fat without broadly producing atp in other cells . probably if atp synthase is dysfunctioning.
thyroid hormone can also lower cortisol
u might need more salt in the PM to offset the adrenaline to get to sleep"Self-organizing systems decay only if they have assimilated inertia, and — with a little support of the right kind— the centers of degeneration can become centers of regeneration."
"world," as a source of new perceptions
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@Razvan I tested my prolactin some months ago and it came back normal. However, if that was the case, would simply repleting the nutrients bring it to acceptable levels?
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@wrl thanks, will definitely read. I try to cover as much nutritional deficiencies as possible. Maybe I should eat liver more consistently, unfortunately availability is rather spotty where I live.
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@GreekDemiGod said in High metabolism feeling lethargic rather than energetic?:
That can happen in people who take thyroid hormones, but still have unresolved health issues - digestion, liver, mold intoxication...etc.
Yes on the first, likely on the second, maybe on the third. It seems a chicken/egg problem though. Nothing I tried for gut issues did much; I hoped raising the metabolism might also fix my digestion and help my liver.
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@cs3000 said in High metabolism feeling lethargic rather than energetic?:
how long did you have temp fixed for was it 1 month +?
Nope, I got scared and quit it more than a week ago. My temps are still higher than baseline, and my HR is still around 85 (baseline is 60-70). In my wife the natural increase is more consistent, likely for longer than a month at this point.
u might need more salt in the PM to offset the adrenaline to get to sleep
Is this about the need for sodium or is there something unique about salt? I take a lot of sodium bicarbonate in the PM and it helps somewhat, but doesn't resolve the issue.
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For now, I will supplement both vitamin D and iron and I will try NDT again when a blood test shows adequate stores. Thanks to everyone who has answered, I appreciate your help and insight.
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I would avoid iron supplementation, just eat more meat.
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@DonkeyDude yess.
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@DonkeyDude I will suggest to try iron citrate not the normal prescriped iron sulfate. The citrate form protects against the formation of free radicals, it's easier absorbed and causes 0 to no intestinal distress.
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Does not compute with me in terms of coherence.
If you are indeed metabolically on a high level, being lethargic is an oxymoron.
Is there any other basis for saying you are in a high metabolic state induced by mitochondrial sugar oxidation other then on your temps alone?
Other than the thyroid panel that includes rT3, you can also use an ECG's QTc and the Achilles tendon reflex test to get confirmation.
To add, you can test if you have optimal acid-base balance using Hydrion urine and saliva pH test strips (pH 5.5 -
to test your urine and saliva at various times. As when you are running on mito respiration, you produce plentybof CO2 that acts as a very good buffer to keep your pH levels more stable and in balance.Body temperature can also be influenced by the infectious state in your body, as well as by the level of endotoxins in your body that have the effect of increasing your body temps due to it activating a state of alertness in your body's immune system.
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@DonkeyDude Your wife's hypothesis about having run so long on stress hormones jibes with my experience as an explanation for your fatigue.
After a decades of running on adrenalin/cortisol to feel "normal" before discovering Peat and experimenting with exogenous thyroid supplementation, I seem to recall that there were many times when eating a carbohydrate-rich diet or taking supplements to decrease/oppose adrenalin or cortisol, I experienced paradoxical results in the first 3 to 24 months similar to what you describe.
Even after normalizing thyroid (at least in the blood), I think I continued to behaviorally/psychologically "crave" stress to feel the endogenous stress hormones I was unfortunately so accustomed to: sleep deprivation, HIIT, anger, provoking conflict, etc.
Does anyone know if there's any literature or if Ray wrote anything regarding how long it takes to re-establish thyroid homeostasis in tissue -- across the many different types of tissue in the body -- following early responses (as expected) to thyroid supplementation (e.g. normal serum levels in thyroid-panel blood tests, normal body temperature, normal-range speedy Achilles tendon reflect)?
I once asked a very well-published senior endocrinologist (indirectly about Ray's critiques of endos relying too much on blood tests) whether he thought blood tests implied normal thyroid action in the tissue. His response was entirely sympathetic to Ray and other's critiques of over-reliance on blood tests when assessing a person's thyroid status. He went on to say that, because biopsies of human tissue are invasive/impractical/expensive -- and maybe also because the available techniques to analyze what healthy thyroid action looks like in tissues, e.g., leading to ample ATP production (I'm not sure about how good the existing lab techniques are), we know almost nothing about thyroid action in the tissue for a typical patient that endos see!
I'd be curious to hear other thoughts about reliable tests (we probably already know a lot of the common symptom profiles we can notice ourselves) to assess thyroid saturation/action and efficiency of mitochondria and ATP production. Given unlimited money, willingness to be biopsied, and access to the best university labs (not just run-of-the-mill tests offered by Labcorp, etc.)...how reliably might one measure thyroid levels in the tissue?
I suspect it's possible to have normal-to-high free T3, very good body temperature, and still suffer from metabolic problems (insufficient ATP or inflammation) in one's brain tissue (or elsewhere).
In my experience, homeostasis (of a much improved kind) eventually came after multiple years of Peat-inspired diet and thyroid supplementation. But the improvements were not in lock-step. The most frustrating and noticeable paradoxical situation was just as you described: achieving high body temperature with NDT or T3 and having brain fog, malaise, incapacitating fatigue (in the first month or so). I think it was the result of being an adrenalin/cortisol "addict". Brain fog and psychological tone lifted noticeably after 2 or 3 months of thyroid meds for me. But other improvements took longer.
I also don't think re-establishing homeostasis after beginning thyroid meds is typically a path of "steady", one-way (i.e., monotonic increasing) improvement. There should be improvements to justify continuing with the experiment, and it sounds like there were! I would expect that there will also be frustrating and unexpected (hopefully temporary) setbacks -- like waves of fatigue because your adrenalin/cortisol is much lower than you're used to.
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@RawGoatMilk88 said in High metabolism feeling lethargic rather than energetic?:
I would avoid iron supplementation, just eat more meat.
Historically it was not enough for us (judging by ferriting level), although I would prefer otherwise. Availability of red meat also leaves something to be desired where we live.
@Razvan said in High metabolism feeling lethargic rather than energetic?:
I will suggest to try iron citrate not the normal prescriped iron sulfate. The citrate form protects against the formation of free radicals, it's easier absorbed and causes 0 to no intestinal distress.
What do you think about iron bisglycinate? We didn't experience much intestinal irritation from it.
@yerrag I might have chosen a wrong title. The more precise one would be "I have the indicators of a good metabolism, why am I lethargic?". I also did not know endotoxin can raise temps, although at least in my case the temps were tightly correlated with supplementation.
@T-3 thanks for expounding on your experiences. Your post gives me a lot of hope; I have been kind of wavering in my confidence recently and I fear my entire life will pass before I figure this out.
