Reversal of hair loss in Mice with “sugar gel”
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@CrumblingCookie i eyed it to approximate amounts as Mauritio’s comment.
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i disagree, pinching the top of your scalp is impossible, especially if it is already damaged by fibrosis
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@wester130 i think we’re talking about two different types of massage intensity. I began just rubbing by pushing my fingers to the top of the scalp to make it feel good, and trying to move the scalp from side to side, as if to stretch (pleasure is a good sign of a safe stimulation imo). With time, moving the scalp can become a small victory. I can now pinch my scalp skin between two fingers on my well rested days, but many days i cannot… i just rub my fingers on it and move the skin how ever much it will.
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Alright, everyone. I've a few new things to tell and stimulate further thoughts on across a couple of topics.
I've ordered various ingredients for blending a new, novel batch of enhanced glucose hair tonic. Which I hope to engage in and report of soon.
Wrt to the very good properties of butyrate, I've come to experience the downside:
After adding only a few drops of tocopherol to my previous mixture, the strong sour-buttery smell has appeared. It really lingers in the hair and clothing. It's not a good smell to go about with in daily life.
That is such a shame.
I'm thinking of replacing the butyrate with smell-neutral apigenin for similar effects.@Mauritio said:
Do you not get weird rancid butter smell from the butyrate. I have dropped it from the newest batch.
@CrumblingCookie said:
Not at all. I had also used the butyrate suspended in water on my arms before and it was fine. Smell-wise it only slightly lingers when blended into oils.
I have a lot to say about the different forms of (pro)vitamin B5 and the widespread problems from use of pantothenic acid in supplements and B-vitamin supplementation in general.
Here's something good and simple from weekly i.m. injections of 500mg dexpanthenol (pantothenol) in human females over the course of two months:
Systemic dexpanthenol as a novel treatment for female pattern hair loss. 2021- "As in the previous series, this study revealed that four-fifths of the patients reported that they observed increased hair growth with DXP."
- "The lack of a control group and the questionnaire-based study may lead to recall bias."
@Mauritio Add generous amounts of dexpanthenol to your blend?
Drink generous amounts of the 75% dexpanthenol liquid every day? It's not at all expensive from the cosmetic ingredient sources.For i.m. injections:
In or from France/Italy there's "Bepanthene 250mg/mL inj sol" by Bayer dissolved in pantolactone and water for about €10/6 vials. Very interestingly, it has an official, authorized use as adjunctive treatment of diffuse alopecia. Noone has ever given me that hint, ever.
It's also simple to make: Buy the pure powderor the pure liquid 75% D-dexpanthol cosmetic ingredient(Edit: The DEX in the ampoules for i.m. smells much purer so don't use the liquid cosmetic ingredient for i.m./i.v. as it probably contains some processing impurities), add sterile NaCl or water for injection as needed, pull up through a 200nm (or better, if you can find one) syringe filter and off we go. -
Pretty crazy regrowth in that first example. Interesting that dexpanthenol is sold in certain products as a wound healer. That tracks. Balding = wounding/inflammation on the scalp.
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“D-dexpanthol cosmetic ingredient, add sterile NaCl”
Could this not be effective topically applied with alcohol?
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@LetTheRedeemed said:
Could this not be effective topically applied with alcohol?
Of course! The topical range lies between 2-20% usually. The dexpanthenol salves for wounded skin usually always contain 5%. Contact allergies to it are reported as possible but very rare.
I'd like to apply about 20-50mg per use. Seeing that I commonly use 2.5-4.5ml of my blend per application this could be reached with a 1% dexpanthenol solution.
I presume DEX should be a more beneficial ingredient and of a higher priority than NMN (B3) and am curious about any interjection from Mauritio.
Because DEX readily oxidizes to PA once inside the cell we could even ascribe some direct antioxidant effects to that initial conversion on top of it increasing GSH synthesis after following conversion to CoA.
Side info on dexpanthenol:
DEX is already an alcohol by itself. It can be diluted in water. It has a hydroxyl end group instead of pantothenic's acid (PA) carboxyl group.
The crucial difference I found is that:-
DEX enters cells very easiyl by passive uptake, whereas PA relies on active uptake by shared vitamin transporters which severely limit the amount and whacks things out of balance.
I.e. the uptake mechanism of PA is competitive to large amounts of the other oral or systemic B-vitamins. Most reported is its competition to biotin uptake but folate and others are implicated just as much. -
In short, that's why for topical use we need DEX rather than PA,
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and why DEX is superior and the primary choice also for systemic and oral use. And why use of oral or systemic PA is indeed shite and far from sufficient nor good enough for many conditions.
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The 75% DEX liquid is a very thick, viscous gel.
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Diluted in water it spreads nicely on skin with a texture similar to glycerin, but is quickly and completely absorbed and leaves a "grippy" feel of the skin (as opposed to sticky).
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I tastes slightly sour, alcoholic-sweet. I'm going to drink it from now on at the rate of 2-3g/day. Very conveniently, the 75% DEX liquid is easily available and even considerably cheaper than what PA or DEX raw powders or supplements cost.
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@CrumblingCookie Interesting development.
I recall reading people talking about increased hair loss, after supplementing Vitamin B5 . I think it had to with reduction in biotin's effects since they both use the same Transporter. Biotin would be my next candidate .
Do you know the supposed MoA of dexapenthanol?For some reason I do not get the "cosmetic" benefits I talked about anymore.First I thought it was because my hair was getting longer, but after a hair cut it still seems the same.
Now I'm starting to think it might have to do with the potassium bicarbonate, maybe I'll try a batch without it.Do you notice that your hair is getting more dry or brittle from all the alcohol exposure ?
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@Mauritio
Yes those are the effects of calcium pantothenate (pantothenic acid), which I finally discovered to be an awful therapeutic substance in spite of a strong necessity for it within cells. If you decide to follow the route with PA and biotin you may well get yourself into endlessly unsatisfying daily balancing efforts.
There are stark inter-individual difference in B5 metabolism in people to bear in mind. Hence some folks have consistently different requirements as for their regular amount of B5 intake and its form than others. Plus, there's essentially no free PA in foods anyways but rather CoA, which must be broken down and converted enzymatically which is hugely dependant on a healthy GI microbiome which likely also contributes to its de-novo synthesis to an unknown extent.Do you know the supposed MoA of dexapenthanol?
It's required for acetyl coenzyme A levels so is essential for protein and fatty acid metabolism and synthesis (think mitochondrial and cellular membranes!) and mitochondrial ATP levels. But also for utilization of pyruvate through PDH. Thereby it significantly increases cellular functionings (also of immune cells and their cytokines) and cellular repair and cell prolification.
That also increases GSH synthesis for increased resilience against radiation or chemical damage.
The immunological effects are very profound. Wrt to skin, a B5 deficiency in rodents e.g. leads to severe Corynebacterium (acnes) infection of strains which would be of no concern in a sufficient state.
There's some effect on keratinases and decreasing fibrosis, too.
Deficiency leads to impaired acetylation of proteins (think histones, too). I.e. more Acetyl-CoA means more (re)acetylation.
Also, even though adrenal functions are greatly impaired in response to ACTH stimulation in B5 deficiency, there are strong hints of a deficiency significantly increasing target tissue sensitivity to corticosteroids/cortisol. So even though there's less than normal circulating cortisol it is more detrimental to organs and tissues.
---> To sum up: More ATP, acetyl-CoA, cell functioning and growth and skin barrier integrity, gluthatione, immulogical control (not just anti-inflammatory, but helping to clear actual infections)Do you notice that your hair is getting more dry or brittle from all the alcohol exposure ?
Your hair, or your scalp? If your hair is getting brittle I'd suspect another cause than alcohol. Likely impaired keratin formation unable to keep up. Could be lack of cysteine? Either absolute or functional as in lack of lysosomal cystine release to the cytosol and its conversion to cysteine in which case cysteamine or panthetine would be great.
I haven't noticed increased brittleness but I've probably also used a solution with less alcohol than your blends.What I've noticed after many weeks of using the butyrate+glucose+lactic acid-blend is more dandruff. After I've switched my shampoo to H&S again after a long time my scalp and hair immediately felt smoother and "cleaner". Which is why I'll either keep using that or add the anti-fungal piroctone olamine to my blend.
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This is going a little off-topic and I may choose to create a thread dedicated to B5:
@CrumblingCookie said in Reversal of hair loss in Mice with “sugar gel”:
I'm going to drink it from now on at the rate of 2-3g/day.
I've had to decrease that amount in adapation to reality because maximum oral tolerability of DEX seems to be about 100-300mg per time.
More makes the stomach and upper intestines feel a little hard and heavy.
IME it's also more effective when kept in the mouth for a long time before swallowing.
In analogy to many other substances probably more of it stays intact as DEX through sublingual uptake whereas more seems to convert to PA in GI mucosa uptake. I therefore surmise that systemic i.m. DEX injections should be more biologically effective to peripheral tissues than oral intake.@Mauritio
Amidst my search for sourcing injectable dexpantenol from Europe I've stumbled upon an interesting pharmacy product sold in Germany: K5 Spezial-N Tincture. Its ingredients are- Aqua, Isopropyl Alcohol, Benzyl Nicotinate, Panthenol; Salicylic Acid, Tyrosine, Biotin.
Looks to me as if they've been tackling that absorption issue of niacin/niacinamide by grouping it up with benzyl (rather than choosing NMN like you).
That tincture's said to strenthen the scalp, i.e. the roots of the hair and help against diffuse or inflammatory hair loss.
I'd say it needs to be enhanced with glucose and lactate to make for a sound blend and resemble your next candidate. What do you reckon? -
Hi everyone.
This is my new batch:
1.5% Dextrose
1.5% Dexpanthenol
1% L-Lactic Acid
1% Potassiumbicarbonate (to buffer part of the LA to lactate and provide potassium)
0.5%
1%Glycerine (to increase viscosity and skin adhesion of the solution+ emulsification)0.5%
0.8%alpha-Bisabolol (antiinflammatory + antimicrobial + humectant + reductant)0.6% Vitamin E (equals 15mg=22IU per 2.5mL) (needs an extra solubilizer!)
0.4% Allantoin (antiinflammatory + proliferative + keratolytic + humectant)
0.33% L-Threonine (as a source for protein energy + L-Glycine)0.05% Pirocton olamine (antifungal to counteract the topical glucose. This is more of a preemptive measure as I lack the diagnostics to discover or evaluate fungal influences)
0.05% Centella asiatica oil (needs an extra solubilizer!) (for collagen synthesis and inhibit collagen type III fibrosis)
0.002% Apigenin (for HDACi. Equals 5mg per 2.5mL; maybe needs more. If in capsules with fillers: Must be soaked in alcohol first, then filtered, then added. Otherwise the blend will be cloudy and looking "yeasty" and application will leave visible filler particles on the hair)
0.002% Green tea extract powder (50% EGCG) (for HDACi. Use alcoholic filtrate)
0.45% (w/w)
0.5%Rokonsal BSB-N: Benzyl alcohol, glycerine, benzoic acid, sorbic acid (as antibacterial + antifungal preservative)5% Alcohol (Ethanol 96%) (for solubility of pirocton olamin and some mediocre solubility of bisabolol).
-> about pH 4.5
Edit:
I've worked through it again and adjusted the text above. Here's why:| Glycerine 0.5% is enough since 1) the dexpanthenol already provides a good texture, 2) the preservative also contains some glycerine, 3) it's not useful as an emulsifier for any of the ingredients here.
| alpa-Bisabolol is an oil and insoluble in water or glycerine. We need a solubilizer for it or will float on top. Or just bodge it with alcohol in which it is somewhat soluble and leaves a film on top. 0.5% is still very generous as I've seen commercial skincare sera recipes with only 0.1-0.2% bisabolol (racemic).
| Vitamin E oil (natural): This needs a solubilizer if we want to have it pretty. Ethanol disperses just a part of into a milky solution. It still floats on top as small oily droplets.
| Allantoin 0.4% is generous. Probably a reduction to 0.1-0.2% would still be fine. It's fairly water-soluble; up to 0.5%.
| L-Threonine is probably fairly useless here. I'd rather include L-proline and ascorbylpalmitate.
| Centella asiatica oil: Needs a solubilizer like PEG-40 hydr. ricinus oil or something more natural. Otherwise it floats on top.
| Rokonsal only 0.45% (w/w, ie. about 0.4% v/v); a little less because its aqueous solubility threshold is about 0.6%.
| Pirocton olamine (powder) is requires a 1-10% alcohol solution for solubility. It's insoluble in water and glycerine.
| Green tea / EGCG. I've added this to complement the Apigenin.
So, overall it's not the prettiest blend yet because I haven't used solubilizers. I'm a beginner in the world of cosmetics/skincare manufacture. The benzoic/sorbic acid preservative smells slightly almondy-fruity-sweet-alcoholic. One may choose to cover that with other fragrances or use a different preservative.
Will see how it goes with this one. Any thoughts and suggestions?
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I'm late to this thread but has anyone experience of DIM (Diindolylmethane) that can boost catalase in aged Men for reversing white head and beard hair due to the buildup of hydrogen peroxide in the hair follicle leading to oxidative stress and the gradual loss of melanin, causing hair to turn gray or white
Feel free to ignore if you want
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This is all very interesting, and related to recent explorations of mitochondrial function in hair loss.
I wonder if sugar solution could also be useful for wound healing or even phenomena like acne, which is at least sometimes a bacterial infection.
@Hearthfire had written some interesting stuff about the possibility of a broad continuum of infection in tissues and hair. If we think that the spectrum of vitality has a broad range at the subclinical level, that makes a lot of sense.
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I read recently about how in Africa where they didn't have access to skilled surgeons, doctors would pack large open wounds with loads of sugar. It provides a healing and antibacterial environment for the wounds. It's has all kinds of effects on healing the wound site that even mainstream medicine will admit to, while leaving out the bioenergetic component of sugar giving energy to the cells/tissues to help it regenerate.
Ray Peat also mentioned a topical dextrose/sugar solution would be beneficial for the scalp and hair in a podcast with Danny Roddy. I can grab the excerpt if you want, I posted it here somewhere.
So yes, I think if you can deal with the mess of it, like you have a few hours every day where you could leave a solution of dextrose/sugar/honey, it would be very beneficial.
Glad you find that idea of the broad continuum of infection in tissues and hair interesting. I think it is a very possible cause of many if not most cases of hair loss that is too overlooked by people researching hair loss. It's not exactly easy to diagnose if you've got an occult infection of malassezia or some other type of fungus, or an infestation of demodex mites, either or which could be deep in the scalp and missed by a dermatologist/doctor.
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is anyone using a growband?
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@Hearthfire I know that (povidone) iodine is not usually considered Peaty, but I've been having great success with using it to treat ringworm infections on flesh, and toenail fungus. I'm kind of interested to see how it works for my dandruff as well... since that is usually thought of as a yeast infection. I'll have to give it a try and make a small thread for it if the result is good.
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@Rah1woot
I had tried topical iodine (diluted Lugol's) on my scalp before and wouldn't recommend it. I suspect the oxidative action of iodine is bad for hair follicles and the papillae.Although I've read about a peculiar association between those tiny hair muscles (for erecting hairs) and iodide, as in that those erector pilii don't function well in iodide deficiency, and that "disorderly" body or head hair which turns to all directions instead of a generally common alignment may therefore be a hint towards a lack of iodide. IME there's something to it.
Against fungal issues perhaps borax? Don't know for how long the aqueous solution must be allowed to soak in for good effects, though.
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@CrumblingCookie What method of application did you use for the iodine on the scalp?
I've had such great success with using povidone iodine (whose action is a delayed release of iodine) for other fungal infections that I'm still pretty keen to try it on the scalp, to be honest.
I believe what you say about the harm to the follicles, but I would also think it's not a huge deal if used for intermittent treatment, and then washed off.
But this is getting somewhat off the thread topic of sugar gel and hairloss.
I will make a separate thread @CrumblingCookie and tag you.
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I am positive even a small amount of iodine would help if you have a fungal infection in the scalp. How much did you use, CrumblingCookie? Did you notice it drying out your hair or something? If it was a large amount you tried, maybe just mixing in a couple drops with whatever shampoo you use, and increasing until you see negative effects would be the play. Then reduce it a bit.
My brother has been dealing with a ringworm infection on his hand, I'll be recommending he try the iodine. Thanks for that info. Will also try the borax.
@Rah1woot said in Reversal of hair loss in Mice with “sugar gel”:
But this is getting somewhat off the thread topic of sugar gel and hairloss.
I will make a separate thread @CrumblingCookie and tag you.I mean, this thread has evolved into a general discussion of hair loss and treatments already. But maybe it would be good to have a hair loss general so to speak, for easier discoverability for future users.
