Why are you all so religious

[dan.dominic]

@CO3 I didnt use the what about the other guys argument. If I implied that than I'm sorry. My point was that the abusers have by and large been exterminated, although there is still some of them in there. This was to show that it's not something that's intrinsic to Catholicism, and that it was a scandal over a certain time period in our churches.

Its horrible how you present data and make conclusions presumably off the same sources, then when I do it you make the data out to be dubious.

[dan.dominic]

@CO3 I dont get why that data would be a lie. You're saying our church supported the nazis, and prusmably youre using some sort of mainstream data. Yet when Im using data youre saying its dubious. Anyone can look at the map at who voted for Hitler and its almost identical with the Protestant areas, and the Catholic areas didnt vote for him. And, like I said, the Pope publicly called him out in this encylical from 1937:

"8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds."

"11. None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are "as a drop of a bucket" (Isaiah xI, 15)."

"17. The peak of the revelation as reached in the Gospel of Christ is final and permanent. It knows no retouches by human hand; it admits no substitutes or arbitrary alternatives such as certain leaders pretend to draw from the so-called myth of race and blood."

"The Church founded by the Redeemer is one, the same for all races and all nations. Beneath her dome, as beneath the vault of heaven, there is but one country for all nations and tongues; there is room for the development of every quality, advantage, task and vocation which God the Creator and Savior has allotted to individuals as well as to ethnical communities. "

https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html

And as a response:

"The release of Mit brennender Sorge precipitated an intensification of the Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany.[63] Hitler was infuriated.[2] Twelve printing presses were seized, and hundreds of people sent either to prison or the concentration camps.[2] In his diary, Goebbels wrote that there were heightened verbal attacks on the clergy from Hitler, and wrote that Hitler had approved the start of trumped up "immorality trials" against clergy and anti-Church propaganda campaign. Goebbels' orchestrated attack included a staged "morality trial" of 37 Franciscans.[64] On the "Church Question", wrote Goebbels, "after the war it has to be generally solved … There is, namely, an insoluble opposition between the Christian and a heroic-German world view".[64]"

[Kvirion]

@Hando-Jin said in Why are you all so religious:

I suspect any benefits come from the community part of religion rather than the beliefs, not to be diminished I guess, particularly in the elderly.

Yep.

As far as any real transformation goes, it's obviously very limited in what it can provide. Like psychology, Religion's opposition to explanations of suffering that can't ever include biology make it completely toxic IMO.

Yeah, most (big) religions are about coping (as a normie/peasant) not about thriving as a leader/expert of a community... Moreover, religions are mostly as you said stuck in the Middle/Dark Ages...

BTW it's sad that such religious zealots, nazis, and incels here are creating noise (low vibrations) on this forum and scaring away some valuable people...

[Regina]

@yerrag You describe the most high God.

[yerrag]

@Kvirion said in Why are you all so religious:

@Hando-Jin said in Why are you all so religious:

I suspect any benefits come from the community part of religion rather than the beliefs, not to be diminished I guess, particularly in the elderly.

Yep.

As far as any real transformation goes, it's obviously very limited in what it can provide. Like psychology, Religion's opposition to explanations of suffering that can't ever include biology make it completely toxic IMO.

Yeah, most (big) religions are about coping (as a normie/peasant) not about thriving as a leader/expert of a community... Moreover, religions are mostly as you said stuck in the Middle/Dark Ages...

BTW it's sad that such religious zealots, nazis, and incels here are creating noise (low vibrations) on this forum and scaring away some valuable people...

Hi Regina,

If neanderthals and cro-magnons understood God this way, what does this say about the current human species? Is this really a progression or is it a regression? In fairness, not all homo sapiens think in the vein of being programmed to believe in what is called faith that substitutes for reason and wisdom.

If a tree in an orchard is barren and does not bear fruit, should one keep watering the tree while other fruit trees can take its place?

[Kvirion]

@yerrag said in Why are you all so religious:

If neanderthals and cro-magnons understood God this way, what does this say about the current human species?

LOL! Can you see a difference between an organized forcefull degenerated religion and a deeply personal in-depth (continuously evolving as a real theology) relationship with a god?

BTW isn't naming someone like "neanderthals and cro-magnons" a cardinal sin of pride?

religious zealots, nazis, and incels

Do you think that a one ancient commercialized religion taken to the extreme, one anti-humanistic ideology, and a misogynic approach to one of the sexes/genders can solve our current poly-crisis?

BTW wise words... https://youtu.be/BrmkLfeytqk

[Kruton]

One of the reasons is because you can’t be your own god. I have faith in Jesus, God has delivered miracles in my life, He has protected me, and has guided me around pitfalls.

[yerrag]

@Kvirion said in Why are you all so religious:

LOL! Can you see a difference between an organized forcefull degenerated religion and a deeply personal in-depth (continuously evolving as a real theology) relationship with a god?

BTW isn't naming someone like "neanderthals and cro-magnons" a cardinal sin of pride?

The joke is on us actually, laugh all you want- but at yourself. There is nothing to be proud of when we keep failing, and it's not that we're getting better at it each time we fail. You can't call it evolution when you are wrapped in straitjackets in your continual spiral into a religious helplessness centered on what is dressed up as faith while you become more and more helpless under a rules-based order that feeds you positivity and hopeful narratives while the world sinks into a barbarism with you dancing to the monotonous music of "hear no evil, see no evil" with each technological leap taking us more and more into a virtual reality of altered consciousness of controlled and curated media. Yet even as we try to break free, such as going into the forum we are in, we are just l slightly less contaminated as the spell can't help but seep in.

Keep calling and praying to Jesus while your priests and bishops and cardinals and popes and pastors do nothing, nada, zero- you hear me? - squat as they preach in unison about you being saved, and you're just as happy to know (or believe, or think you know) that you're saved from the manufactured fear of eternal damnation, and for that- you are quite content as a cow on pasture for you believe life is short, and you YOLO in your foreground while you blur the background which is fentanyl crazed, war mongering and execution dressed up as a crusade of morality and liberation, and genocides where the perpetrator points the finger back at the victim and you and your pastors ignore the truth and perpetuate lies such as this as part of the propaganda that is part and parcel of religion.

Not that I hate Jesus. He is exemplary and the best prototype of man that God ever made. One to be cloned in every person. It's that Jesus' name is being used against him in the very fabric of Christianity.

Watch what we do. And not what they say. And you know the hypocrisy lives in each of us. And don't play Pontius Pilate.

[Kvirion]

@yerrag A very accurate diagnosis of current civilizational problems. Appreciate it.

However, I still think that religious tones blur the situation, and are in some aspects maladaptive.

Jesus. He is exemplary and the best prototype of man that God ever made.

Yeah, but this prototype is still not enough for today. And not enough for me...

A new kind of spirituality for the 21st century would be a better solution.

BTW I don't believe in remorse. I support reciprocated altruism and redressing unjust wrongs.
And nobody should play Pontius Pilate because of this wisdom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhobcj2K9v4

[Hando-Jin]

@Kvirion said in Why are you all so religious:

BTW it's sad that such religious zealots, nazis, and incels here are creating noise (low vibrations) on this forum and scaring away some valuable people...

I'm wondering if it's on purpose....

[CO3]

@Hando-Jin I've been around these people for a while (through peat twitter which is mostly made up of these people) and I can say that no, for the most part they are not actively trying to subvert this thing we have going on thanks to Ray.

There's some people that I think do fall into that category online. But for the vast majority I personally think they are adventurists and opportunists. The upside there is that I also know some people that come out of this world, find Ray's works and then improve themselves and let go of that stuff. The Internet is problematic, which is why Ray was so adamant the digital culture needs to be dismantled.

Another good thing is that this forum does not carry Ray's name, so all the cringe is more tolerable since it's not directly blemishing his legacy. You might count me among these people. as someone that thinks the political side of things is deeply important and affects health more than anything, and I think that's where you would be delineating the disciplines in a harmful way.

Either way it's important to just assume the Internet is a trash heap and you have to see the forest through the trees.

[fiester]

Here's a sermon that explains some reasons why

[reformedski]

@Hando-Jin i don't think most people are religious because it's practical. Maybe some are, but that would be for the wrong reasons

[yerrag]

@Kvirion said in Why are you all so religious:

@yerrag A very accurate diagnosis of current civilizational problems. Appreciate it.

Thanks.

However, I still think that religious tones blur the situation, and are in some aspects maladaptive.

It is very much maladaptive. Jesus' "Love thy enemies" does not mean chronic one-way violence that perpetuates the moral hazard of perpetual harm to one class with impunity.

Jesus. He is exemplary and the best prototype of man that God ever made.

Yeah, but this prototype is still not enough for today. And not enough for me...

He gets angry. Anger is amoral. What he did to the moneychangers outside the temple is laudable.

A new kind of spirituality for the 21st century would be a better solution.

I welcome this idea.

BTW I don't believe in remorse. I support reciprocated altruism and redressing unjust wrongs.
And nobody should play Pontius Pilate because of this wisdom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhobcj2K9v4

Along with reciprocated altruism goes the natural inclination for "tit for tat" as a moderating third rail against abuse of power, and the re-balancing of good and evil in this world.

The natural world has this balance. Human society is so gamed that this balance is gone foe good.

[Kvirion]

@yerrag said in Why are you all so religious:

Along with reciprocated altruism goes the natural inclination for "tit for tat" as a moderating third rail against abuse of power, and the re-balancing of good and evil in this world.

Agreed. BTW Recently, I saw a good video about tit for tat history https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScpHTIi-kM

The natural world has this balance. Human society is so gamed that this balance is gone for good.

Yes, unfortunately...

[Tahodama]

I think 1) Anything related to self-improvement will naturally be assimilated into the Christian gospel/mythos of rising from a fallen state, or at least that's what I got when I saw a large amount of the high follower Peat accounts on Twitter were Christian, 2) Anything esoteric or mystic will attract the religious and superstitious, I need no more than to point to Landshark's account.

@CO3 I request citation on the catholics collaborating with the nazis, so I can uhh... attack them more effectively. Yeah. Or at least I had dealt with deranged natsocs who attacked catholics specifically because they opposed Hitler or abetted the jews in some way, so it's alien to see people say the opposite.

Regarding religion's practical use in health, I don't know why one would expect some correlation between one's understanding of ultimate truth and of their eternal destiny, with one's immediate and simple health. Christianity is foremost an otherwordly ideal, and immediate health is a secondary concern. It's the same reason Christians cuck on various eugenic imperatives so they can maintain moral integrity. Even evolutionary regress is not the greatest evil one can suffer.

But conversion can inadvertently cause health improvement, whether it be Buddhism or Christianity or whatever. Pointing out any group of disingenuous or lukewarm believers does nothing to falsify this, that's just human vice at play. And even without religion people will invent some abstract philosophical principle to move themselves in a good direction - that's the point of Nietzche's affirmations of life. "March of science"-esque atheism is only one type of secularity, and its ardent skepticism erodes even simple mystical beliefs about life and good action.

[yerrag]

@Kvirion Thanks for the links. Understanding tit for tat from the first link you sent is the perfect segue for the second link on game theory.

I think people can be less likely to use their bully pulpit when they and their audience understand how at times what is intrinsically evil can be a social good.

Sister Prejean of Dead Man Walking conversely is doing something intrinsically good while encouraging a social evil.

[CO3]

@Tahodama Collaboration was so widespread that it's slightly annoying for me to talk to Yanks who keep downplaying it.

The only place there were very few was the Soviet Union, but then we complain about 'the purges'.

The reason this is the narrative is because the Catholic church is a huge multinational corporation with lots of PR behind it. Just where I live, I don't even need to go more than 50 km off from WHERE I LIVE there was a giant political party based on Catholic Nazi collaboration. You ignorant yanks wouldn't ever know anything about Europe unless it is through the lens of propaganda, but most Europeans with even the slightest knowledge about the Nazi occupation know about Leon Degrelle. the leader of Rex.

GOOGLE THAT. LEARN SOMETHING FOR ONCE INSTEAD OF RELYING ON THIRD PARTY INFORMATION

just read. you fucking idiot.

[Tahodama]

Well, upon waking up and seeing this, I decided to drop my arrogant pretenses and educate myself. When a European speaks, I sit my yank ass down and LISTEN.

I've been reading for a few hours, which is obviously nothing conclusive, but I did want to note something not mentioned thus far, which is the 2020 vatican archives being unlocked.

Francis announced its opening in 2019 which finally began in 2020, but unfortunately [[[Covid-19]]] (I used brackets instead of parenthesis for a reason) halted the effort of a lot of historians to investigate all the letters that had been archived. I read that as a late as October 2023 that the investigation of all the thousands of letters is still ongoing, which is quite interesting.

There are many things in defense against the nazi allegations, like jews being hidden and all that, but I won't note those down since that's not the aim of the discussion, and the actions of lower-ranking clergy or laymen is nothing that can be levied for or against Rome as a whole.

There are the obvious things the holy see did, such as the 1933 concordat which was seen as fraternization and gave legitimacy to the nazi government, but it should be noted this was done to secure freedom of religion for Catholicism in Germany amidst the forecoming crackdowns by the NSDAP... after all, since the reformation, Catholic clergy and advocacy groups have been seen as parasitic to the host nation and its interests, so it would make sense that Pius XI would want to protect the Catholic diaspora in Germany, since they would get persecuted if Catholicism as a whole were to organize against the NSDAP... these efforts would be futile in the night of long knives, anyway. I don't blame them, Catholic bishops have always been seen as puppets of Rome so they would be obvious targets in nationalist uprisings (See: Gustav Vasa's quarrels with the pope upon his seizing power).

There are also strange reports of Catholic actors working to cover nazis during the post-war period, but this could be seen as works of mercy since they would obviously be executed... whether the actors wanted to protect their lives because they were opposed to the death penalty on principle or because they had sympathies are unknown to me.

There's also reports of Catholic Germans celebrating or recognizing Hitler's election, which is harmful inasmuch as they were giving legitimacy to his already-controversial ideas about race and the jews. This could be seen as some vain lip service to new regimes being established. Or not, I guess.

I think the most damning evidence is actually quite recent, which is pope Pius XII's shocking silence amidst the tragedies. The allies had asked him to give formal condemnations of the NSDAP, but at most he and the vatican would give vague condemnations of wartime atrocities in general, and wouldn't name religious or racial groups. This is a part of the vatican's policy of neutrality and diplomacy during times of war, which you see Francis trying to uphold even today with Israel-V-Palestine/Ukraine-V-Russia (to more or less success, depending on your opinions.) The issue is that when reports of the holocaust were clearly reaching Pius XII he still remained silent, and this culminated in a few nights later in the war when jews in Rome were rounded up and sent to concentration camps. Allegedly, some attempts were made to show that these jews were baptized and thus were no longer jews, but about ~1000 were still sent off and later killed. During the pope's meetings with the German ambassador, he never bothered to protest the killings.
There's the interpretation that Pius XII was afraid of nazi persecution, which hindered his efforts to save the jews. This is problematic, as the Catholic Church boasts about doing what's right without regard to its own safety (i.e., martyrdom mindset), so his timidity is abnormal. One can make the defense that he was acting in the interests of the Catholic faithful, which again would've been persecuted if he spoke too harshly against the NSDAP, thus saving lives in the process.
There's also the idea that he was willingly complicit in these killings... after all, Christian antisemitism was still fairly common back then, and Pius XII is known as one of the more chuddy incel popes (or at least, that's how SSPX radtrads portray him). So maybe he himself had some grudge against the jews and only stepped in when it became a moral issue?

In any case, every allegation I've mentioned thus far are crimes of omission, or complicity in the NSDAP's actions. But I haven't read anything for them actively supporting and abetting the NSDAP's actions - and most of the sources I was reading from were Jewish, and if I may inject my bias I don't think they would want to cover for the Catholic church.

I'll be honest, this Leon Degrelle figure doesn't convince me, at least far less than Pius XII's actions. He frankly just seems like a lolcow nobody loser. The Rexists were formed specifically because he got exiled from Belgium's Catholic party, and he went on to secure a single victory followed by numerous defeats and unpopularity - failed demonstrations, bleeding members, etc. He then simped for the NSDAP but to little avail, only securing funds here and there, and indifference everywhere else. When Germany occupied Belgium he didn't even get to lead his own auxiliary military. Instead he left the leadership of the Rexists to another person while he fought in the war as a private for some time, only getting promoted (and injured) later. He only gained notoriety among the nazi higherups in the last 2-3 years of the war. To top it all off, he got excommunicated by the bishop of Namur after wearing his SS uniform to mass and getting into a fight with the priest. This lore just sounds like some altright neonazi retard getting himself into trouble rather than some dark collaborator with the Catholic church.
At its most damning, he and the rexists were just some rogue group of Catholic chuds who got constantly suppressed by ecclesial authority. To say that this is evidence of Catholic involvement with the nazis (which, I admit, is not exactly what you said) is like saying the Catholic church is collaborating with the US republican party because the guys who run catholicanswers.com decided to use their resources to turn it into a pro-republican platform.

That's all I have to write down. I'm sure, and I say this unironically, that everything I just wrote is probably littered with inaccuracies, exaggerations, misinterpretations, or outright false claims from certain actors. But that's what you get with 3 hours of research, I guess. In any case it seems the Catholic church definitely had some suspicious behavior, definitely in the lower rungs of the Church spreadout through Europe, and allegedly had some suspicious behavior in the higher rungs of the church. And the higher rungs of the church perhaps bear some responsibility for inaction, but I don't see anything which paints the vatican as being some nazi-compromised institution which positively contributed to the holocaust (which again, I admit, is not precisely what you claimed).

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that during this period a good amount of Christians were willing to compromise with the NSDAP as a lesser of two evils against atheistic communism. Although to what extent Catholics and the vatican shared this sentiment is not quantified.

fin.

[peatyourmeat]

i hate NWO
i hate the emperor in rome
i hate all his cringe larp secret orders