Ideas for getting more CO2 into your everyday routine
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Thanks for this @CrumblingCookie. It seems like Thiamine, as with other pro metabolic substances like thyroid, needs to be supported with plenty of fuel, from good sugars. I have always been pretty thin which i now put down to stress hormones, so not too worried about over fuelling at the moment, but it is amazing as my stress hormones have come down im starting to put weight on for the first time in my life.
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The best way is to have a lifestyle of raising CO2 in everything that you do and preventing loss of CO2. For example, taping your mouth at night if you're a mouth breather is a great help. When you're walking around, always nose breathe, nose breathe all the time. And when you're walking or exercising, build up air hunger so that you always want more air than you're actually getting.
These train the respiratory centers in the nervous system to get accustomed to a higher CO2 level all the time and will make you much healthier.
These are the principles that Professor Buteyko discovered and they are how I live my life and it has been a great advantage. I don't get winded when I go up hills. I have tremendous endurance even compared to people who are supposedly very fit and I can exercise without ever having to mouth breathe.
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@CrumblingCookie said in Ideas for getting more CO2 into your everyday routine:
@mostlylurking said:
Yes, other b's can get depleted. Anytime you improve oxidative metabolism, whether it's from supplementing thyroid hormones or from thiamine, the act of increasing/improving metabolism is naturally going to use up other nutrients faster. B2 is one to consider taking more of. A good b-complex in addition to high dose thiamine would be helpful.
@mostlylurking said:
I suspect this is because thiamine improves the conversion of blood glucose into cellular energy which would lower blood sugar which can wake you up.
Humans have no thiaminase to break down thiamin. What's known about the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways is quite murky.
They are very strong inhibitors of MAO and other aminoxidases, especially in the ganglia. This (also) happens through displacement of enzymatic flavoproteins (made from vitamin B2, which is crucial but of which very little (not even double-digit mg/day) is needed).
Much stronger than rasagiline, selegiline.
The MAO-inhibiting metabolites of thiamin are also very long lasting in the human body, as their effects wear on for two to three weeks, easily. Although once a week as per Constatini really maintains the maximum plateau.
This MAO-inhibition, beside the positive metabolic effects of active thiamin itself, is the main reason for Constatini's high-dose-thiamin protocol working so well.
Since thiamin and its metabolites also effect MAO-A it can cause strong diarrhea.
Now, this is not only because of flavoprotein displacement in various aminooxidases, though, but to a far extent due to the lack of available glucose which in turn raises stress and adrenergic hormone actions and serotonin at tissue levels.
It's important to generously supply glucose through carbohydrates or dextrose with HDT (high dose thiamin).
AFAIK this immediate glucose context about HDT has not been put forth appropriately to its crucial significance anywhere. Not by Constatini, not by Lonsdale at hormonesmatter, not by Georgi nor at the lowtoxinforum.Kindly provide links to references for your statements about thiamine. Although I've spent a lot of time trying to find info about "The MAO-inhibiting metabolites of thiamin" and "The MAO-inhibiting metabolites of thiamine" no results from these searches are obtainable.
You stated: "What's known about the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways is quite murky."
"the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways" search results are extensive. Although complex, they seem pretty well defined to me.The importance of thiamine (vitamin B1) in humans
Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) – Structure, Properties, Functions, Deficiency
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@mostlylurking said:
You stated: "What's known about the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways is quite murky."
"the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways" search results are extensive. Although complex, they seem pretty well defined to me.I was hoping to discover something new which I might have missed before but unfortunately all I could spot in these links above is this properly poor
"Elimination: Thiamine is a water-soluble vitamin; excess thiamine is exerted in the urine."
but no info or consideration on anything about the metabolic breakdown of thiamin. Am I being selectively blind or were you under the assumption that excess thiamin is simply being renally exreted, 1:1, completely unaltered?
I shall kindly provide what I could unravel on thiamin and aminooxidases. I've had to dig really deep for it. All the more I could appreciate later and further findings on these:
NAKAMURA, T. (1960). INHIBITION OF D-AMINO ACID OXIDASE BY THIAMINE AND THIAMINE DIPHOSPHATE. THE JOURNAL OF VITAMINOLOGY, 6(2), 103–108. doi:10.5925/jnsv1954.6.103
Meltzer, H. Y. (1961). The effect of thiamine on monoamine oxidase. Biochemical Pharmacology, 7(3-4), 277–278. doi:10.1016/0006-2952(61)90095-8
"in thiamine-deficient rats, the MAO-activity of the brain and intestine is increased"
"These workers suggested that the increase might be related to the stress theory of Selye"
"in vivo, thiamine, which has a quaternary nitrogen in its thiazole moiety, is either itself an inhibitor of MAO, or more likely, is metabolized via a pathway which produces another quaternary nitrogen compound which is an inhibitor of MAO"
"The MAO-inhibition caused by this thiamine-like compound also might explain the hypotension and ganglionic blockade which thiamine produces in man and experimental animals; hypotension in man has been noted with the administration of inhibitors of MAO."
This or these very potent MAO-inhibiting thiamin metabolites are not fully created two hours after injection, but gradually build up over a day or two or so:
"rats given 70 mg of thiamine per kg subcutaneously, and sacrificed after 2 hr, when thiamine pyrosphosphate levels in liver are elevated, showed no inhibition of the MAO activity of liver, brain, and intestine, as compared with untreated controls. However, this does not constitute a refutation of the proposed theory, if the rate of formation of the postulated thiamine metabolite proceeds maximally with the amount of thiamine provided by a normal diet."
"Although in higher animals most of the thiamine which is absorbed is excreted unchanged, the fate of the thiamine which is degraded is largely unknown."
"This action of thiamine is unrelated to its properties as a coenzyme.[4]"
@josh That's a good thing to read about you putting on (previously lacking) weight!
Yes, with thyroid hormones it's very important, too. Quite some people crash when starting thyroid and fall prey to abominable self-enriching creatures and their harmful, incomplete and misguided fables of adrenal fatigue allegedly brought about or amplified by thyroid hormone functions which makes them tenaciously believe in that they now require extra cortisone to metabolically cope. -
@CrumblingCookie links? Links would be helpful.
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@CrumblingCookie said in Ideas for getting more CO2 into your everyday routine:
@mostlylurking said:
You stated: "What's known about the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways is quite murky."
"the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways" search results are extensive. Although complex, they seem pretty well defined to me.I was hoping to discover something new which I might have missed before but unfortunately all I could spot in these links above is this properly poor
"Elimination: Thiamine is a water-soluble vitamin; excess thiamine is exerted in the urine."
but no info or consideration on anything about the metabolic breakdown of thiamin. Am I being selectively blind or were you under the assumption that excess thiamin is simply being renally exreted, 1:1, completely unaltered?
I shall kindly provide what I could unravel on thiamin and aminooxidases. I've had to dig really deep for it. All the more I could appreciate later and further findings on these:
NAKAMURA, T. (1960). INHIBITION OF D-AMINO ACID OXIDASE BY THIAMINE AND THIAMINE DIPHOSPHATE. THE JOURNAL OF VITAMINOLOGY, 6(2), 103–108. doi:10.5925/jnsv1954.6.103
Meltzer, H. Y. (1961). The effect of thiamine on monoamine oxidase. Biochemical Pharmacology, 7(3-4), 277–278. doi:10.1016/0006-2952(61)90095-8
"in thiamine-deficient rats, the MAO-activity of the brain and intestine is increased"
link?
MAO activity definition: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/monoamine-oxidase:
"Monoamine oxidase is an enzyme that plays a role in breaking down neurotransmitters like serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine." So an increase of MAO-activity would lower serotonin. Right? This is why taking an MAO inhibitor along with an SSRI is dangerous because it can cause serotinin toxicity.https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/509224/
"Serotonin turnover has been investigated in regional brain areas of rats made thiamine deficient by pyrithiamine (PT). Following intracisternal injection of [14C]5-hydroxytryptamine ([14C]5-HT), a marked increase in the accumulation of [14C]5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid ([14C]5-HIAA) was found in the medulla-pons, hypothalamus and cerebral cortex. [14C]5-HT levels were normal in all of the brain areas except the cerebral cortex which had an increase of 58%. The ratio of [14C]5-HIAA/[14C]5-HT was significantly increased in every brain region of PT-treated rats except the cerebral cortex. Part of this increase in [14C]5-HIAA was shown to be due to impairment of active transport of this 5-HT metabolite out of the brain. However, increased 5-HT synthesis in the cerebellum, hypothalamus, striatum, hippocampus and cerebral cortex was demonstrated by measurement of 5-HT accumulation after inhibition of brain monoamine oxidase. PT-induced increase in endogenous 5-HIAA in the medulla-pons occurred simultaneously with the onset of neurological signs and both parameters were reversible by thiamine administration. These results suggest that acute thiamine deficiency, induced by PT, both increases brain 5-HT synthesis and impairs 5-HIAA efflux from the brain. There is a close correlation between neurological manifestations and changes in brain 5-HT metabolism in acute thiamine deficiency. ""These workers suggested that the increase might be related to the stress theory of Selye in vivo, thiamine, which has a quaternary nitrogen in its thiazole moiety, is either itself an inhibitor of MAO, or more likely, is metabolized via a pathway which produces another quaternary nitrogen compound which is an inhibitor of MAO"
link? The increase of what?
From personal experience, I do not believe that thiamine is an MAO inhibitor. Methylene Blue acts as an MAO inhibitor. Before I started high dosing thiamine hcl, I had problems with high serotonin. I reacted badly to bananas and also to pineapple, both are serotonergic foods. I also reacted very badly to MB, which is known to be an MAO inhibitor. I recovered via high dose thiamine hcl. So my own personal experience confirms (at least for me) that thiamine (and its metabolites) do not act as MAO inhibitors.
"The MAO-inhibition caused by this thiamine-like compound also might explain the hypotension and ganglionic blockade which thiamine produces in man and experimental animals; hypotension in man has been noted with the administration of inhibitors of MAO."
This or these very potent MAO-inhibiting thiamin metabolites are not fully created two hours after injection, but gradually build up over a day or two or so:
"rats given 70 mg of thiamine per kg subcutaneously, and sacrificed after 2 hr, when thiamine pyrosphosphate levels in liver are elevated, showed no inhibition of the MAO activity of liver, brain, and intestine, as compared with untreated controls. However, this does not constitute a refutation of the proposed theory, if the rate of formation of the postulated thiamine metabolite proceeds maximally with the amount of thiamine provided by a normal diet."
"Although in higher animals most of the thiamine which is absorbed is excreted unchanged, the fate of the thiamine which is degraded is largely unknown."
"This action of thiamine is unrelated to its properties as a coenzyme.[4]"
links??
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Thanks @Ecstatic_Hamster, yeah iv been feeling for a while that (impact of intervention) x (time you spend doing it) = (the biggest health benefit), so small things done consistently and often can sometimes have a far bigger effect. I guess an added variable to this is timing, doing these things when you are most in need. The concept of increasing the tolerance of my central nervous system to co2 and thus my body adjusting by breathing less is very appealing, so the body is always ready to meet that need!
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@josh actually, I only use it to balance the glycine depletion nature of aspirin, which isn’t much (like half the volume of a given aspirin dose).
Other than this exception, I try to keep my amino sources as whole protein (like getting plenty of gelatin), as Ray was wary of isolated aminos. I have played with taurine too, with as little as I know about it, I’ve assumed avoidance doesn’t have to be a hard rule just something to be aware of, and researching side effects before messing with it.
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Thanks @LetTheRedeemed, yes i think your right that its probably a better bet to get a complete amino acid profile of gelatine. Recently iv also experimented with 1g of taurine twice a day with the hope to reduce morning adrenaline. I have also tried agmatine sulfate, which is meant to be an anti-adrenaline metabolite of l-arginine (thanks @Hans), but i do wonder if my high adrenaline is there in the morning because its meant to be. I think on waking i simply dont have the metabolic energy for the process of waking (warming the body up etc, as morning temps are still low), so the adrenaline is coming in to rescue the situation. I guess im artificially suppressing the adrenaline in the hope of being less reactive to stress, and start to make a positive cycle of healing the metabolism. A more direct route would be to ensure lower stress and more energy through the night. I think this is why evening co2 baths were so effective.
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@josh I still do use small amounts of glycine for the aspirin, tho.
Also, Peat mentioned agmatine to Danny (i’m sure we read about the same thing here, it was posted a week ago or so). It’s good and safe.
hope the taurine works out!
Getting squared away for using cynomel + cynoplus, and then after about 6 months on it, was what kicked my high waking adrenaline.
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@CrumblingCookie
You might find the article at this link of interest: https://portlandpress.com/bioscirep/article/38/1/BSR20171148/57181/Thiamine-and-selected-thiamine-antivitaminsMy question is this: are these thiamine anti-vitamins created naturally in the body? Or are these strictly lab creations made for experimentation or for pharmaceutical purposes and do not occur in nature so can be patented?
My eyes glazed over pretty quickly when I tried to read the article. It's above my pay grade. I don't have the ability to slog through it. I'm hoping you are better at this than I am. Perhaps you will find the answer to my question in the linked article. If you do, would you please share it with me?
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Thanks @LetTheRedeemed, i must admit i have dabbled with t3, i found it aggravated the adrenaline a bit, I think because I wasn’t quite ready for it.
It seems to be this careful balance with thyroid of not increasing it too fast so you don’t spook the adrenaline into action, but providing enough to support the slow transfer to genuine metabolic energy rather than stress hormones.
@LetTheRedeemed did you find the thyroid increased the stress response first before it subsided? Thanks again
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@josh Eating lots of sugar during the day and saving protein for later in the day has improved my breathing and increased my co2 output
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@Sugarnotsnow cool observation... I've found that restricting my meat consumption to generally one time of the day (try to hit late after noon as that's when thyroid is highest), gives me more energy and better sleep.
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@josh for sure. There can often be other cofactors that need addressing before using thyroid. One big one is making sure cholesterol is adequately high, or any stimulant will be a stressor, rather than metabolic improver.
On top of that, other than the AM dose, t3 can often be too much and raise adrenaline. According to a symptom and bloodwork diagnosis, Danny helped me determine what ratio of t3/t4 I needed for lunch and dinner. T4 directly lowers adrenaline. Danny, Mike Fave, and Jay, are definitely the ones to go to for ironing out these details. -
@LetTheRedeemed Yea avoiding those imflammatory amino acids in muscle meat like tryptophan inproves my energy and sleep as well
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@Sugarnotsnow agreed, I consume quite a bit of gelatin with my protein meals, but I'm pointing out what you noticed, of not eating protein all times of the day, has helped me too!
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@LetTheRedeemed Yes usually i eat no protein until 4:00 PM. Its been great for my temps and energy
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@Sugarnotsnow
that’s the same time for me as well
