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    Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?

    Literature Review
    adamantane androsterone dht steroids bodybuilding
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    • jamezb46J
      jamezb46 @davedavidson
      last edited by jamezb46

      @davedavidson

      3 alpha is where the ketone functional group for DHT is - which is what allows it to be an androgen. So, if you know anything about organic chemistry you would not mess with that if you want the resulting compound to behave like DHT in the body.

      In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • jamezb46J
        jamezb46 @alfredoolivas
        last edited by jamezb46

        @alfredoolivas

        After looking more into the user's suggestion of putting an ester on position 3 alpha, there is actually zero reason to think it would do anything at all.

        That is because 3 alpha is where the ketone is for DHT, and the hydroxyl group is for androsterone, respectively.

        @davedavidson you cannot simply attach moieties to the position at which the functional groups of the steroid is and expect the resulting compound to be anything but a clusterfuck of a compound that is biologically inert.

        That is why oral steroids have a methyl group at position 17 alpha. Because position 17 beta is where the hydroxyl group is. They do not mess with 17 beta.

        BTW: @alfredoolivas masteron is actually 2alpha-methyl not 3-alpha methyl. As far as I am concerned @davedavidson is the first person to ever think of putting an "ester" of position 3 of an AAS 🙂

        In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

        alfredoolivasA 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • alfredoolivasA
          alfredoolivas @jamezb46
          last edited by

          @jamezb46 I mean 2 methyl DHT!

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • T
            T-3 @davedavidson
            last edited by

            Putting aside the proposal to insert adamantane at 3α, what does everyone think of @davedavidson's claim that oral androsterone (or DHT) is "torching the liver"?

            Respecting that people's responses to androsterone seem to vary markedly, I share @davedavidson's appreciation for androsterone and DHT's psychological effects.

            I've seen the hepatoxicity concerns raised numerous times about oral androsterone on RPF/LTF (e.g. on the androsterone mega thread). What does everyone think about oral androsterone at 4 to 8 drops daily? Would that be "torching the liver"?

            Have we seen studies documenting such problems at these (or higher) doses?

            alfredoolivasA MauritioM 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • alfredoolivasA
              alfredoolivas @jamezb46
              last edited by alfredoolivas

              @jamezb46 you are drilling into him a bit too hard haha. He just innocently suggested something impossible haha

              @davedavidson as James said ketones can’t get esterfied. Only hydroxyl (OH) groups can be esterfied.

              Since most androgenic steroids have a ketone group at position 3, they can’t be esterfied at position 3. For example, androstenedione that has no hydroxyl group and only ketone groups at position 3 & 17 cannot be esterfied.

              However @davedavidson, Androsterone, DHEA and pregnenolone have a hydroxyl group at position 3, so there can be an ester at position 3 of these steroids. Pregnenolone and DHEA acetate have the ester at these positions.

              But in the end as James said
 we are absolutely spoiled with choice for steroids, that are pure and dirt cheap and they work profoundly well.

              We already have androgenic, anti estrogenic, progestogenic, anti mineralocorticoid, GABAergic and anti cortisol steroids all you can buy with ease online for a low price.

              So just take your test and shut up:)

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • alfredoolivasA
                alfredoolivas @T-3
                last edited by alfredoolivas

                @T-3 that’s BS. Only steroids with added functional groups to the outside of the steroid skeleton “scorch” the liver, and they do so to so many varying degrees.

                Androsterone, DHT, testosterone, have no functional groups artificially added to the outside skeleton of the steroid, and are perfectly safe for the liver. Doses of 600mg testosterone undecanoate orally daily (70% bioavailability) have been shown to have no effect on the liver in a clinical trial. Injected testosterone has shown to cure liver disease.

                However, when you add functional groups, they tend to increase liver enzymes. For example, 2a-Methy DHT is DHT with a methyl group added to it and it’s known to slightly increase liver enzymes whereas DHT isn’t.

                However certain functional groups in certain positions have different levels of harshness on the liver.

                T 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • jamezb46J
                  jamezb46
                  last edited by

                  Generally, the more orally bioavailable a steroid is, the more hepatotoxic it is.

                  The hepatotoxicity is a measure of how resistant the steroid is to the liver’s attempts to metabolize it.

                  Why does anyone think that 4-8mg of androsterone is hepatotoxic? What’s stopping the liver from attaching a sulfate group to it to make androsterone sulfate?

                  In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • D
                    davedavidson
                    last edited by davedavidson

                    Oof okay, DHT’s 3-keto can’t be esterified without reducing it, and thatd just tank its activity, I kno im retarded but the responses here are just dogmatic lecturing “take your test and shut up.” It’s condescending and kills any real discussion. I’m not trying to just follow the same old path everyone’s been on since the 50s.where’s the progress?? if you’re not open to exploring new ideas why even engage??

                    alfredoolivasA 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • alfredoolivasA
                      alfredoolivas @davedavidson
                      last edited by alfredoolivas

                      @davedavidson it was a joke, sorry I thought the “:)”made it obvious.

                      You aren’t retarded at all, I didn’t paint you out to seem that way. I just thought you were a little to optimistic about a steroid that was popularised by Haidut, the master of conjecture.

                      It's quite personal to me because I too went down the rabbit hole of listening to Haidut's conjecture... buying all the overpriced Idea Labs products, applying hundreds of milligrams of DHT and pregnenolone on my body to create the optimal "anti-catabolic steroid", listening to his weight loss advice etc... it left me with a massive hole in my wallet and fatter.

                      This is why I ravantly encourage people to present their own evidence, and not follow what Haidut said 10 years ago on a forum or what the X echo chamber is saying, as it is a lot of the time they are spreading info that is 100% conjecture and is a waste of time and resources. Being serious.

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • MauritioM
                        Mauritio
                        last edited by

                        I thinks it's an interesting thought. But I don't really see the upside here. It mainly appeals to people because it's mysterious and hard to obtain etc.
                        I get it... the first email I send Ray was about an obscure progesterone/DHT mix of a designer steroid , which I'm surprised he even replied to đŸ¶
                        But if you want DHT with a longer half life you can use 11ketoDHT.

                        I still think 11ketoT is an interesting option on paper. IIRC I saw a study suggesting it doesn't even aromatize.

                        Dare to think.

                        My X:
                        x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                        alfredoolivasA jamezb46J 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • MauritioM
                          Mauritio @T-3
                          last edited by

                          @T-3 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:

                          I've seen the hepatoxicity concerns raised numerous times about oral androsterone on RPF/LTF (e.g. on the androsterone mega thread). What does everyone think about oral androsterone at 4 to 8 drops daily? Would that be "torching the liver"?

                          Have you looked for studies on that ?

                          Androsterone is an FXR agonist, which are used to treat liver disease. So if anything it should help the liver.

                          Dare to think.

                          My X:
                          x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • alfredoolivasA
                            alfredoolivas @Mauritio
                            last edited by alfredoolivas

                            @Mauritio 11-keto steroids are extremley interesting - 11-keto testosterone can get reduced back into 11-hydroxybeta-testosterone, which is very similar structurally to cortisol - it has the same double bond on position 3-4, the 3 keto group and the 11 hydroxl group.

                            11 keto progesterone looks insane; it turns back into 11-hydroxybeta progesterone which is basically corticosterone without the OH at the top.

                            080d0b93-8454-44f7-a1a3-2a6bf93db427-image.png

                            11 betahydroxy progesterone
                            45095267-35c8-49c7-a2ea-216c1528ff1b-image.png
                            corticosterone.

                            This structural similarity will make it into an insane anti-glucocorticoid. Progesterone binds to the GR receptor with around 8% the binding affinity as cortisol.

                            it is known that the addition of a hydroxyl group at position 11, increases binding to the GR receptor. Fluoxymesterone has a hydroxyl group at position 11, and it binds to the GR stronger than testosterone.

                            It is structurally similar to dexamethesone
                            fluoxymesterone
                            affde52d-1b41-4fa1-a58d-4e2cca13b616-image.png

                            dexamethesone
                            3e3bae95-1099-420f-9182-cd8d534db036-image.png

                            So 11 beta hydroxyprogesterone will probably be an even more strogner GR antagonist than progesterone is - 8% relative to cortisol is very high already.

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • jamezb46J
                              jamezb46 @Mauritio
                              last edited by

                              @Mauritio

                              Patrick arnold is still selling 11-KT.

                              Pretty expensive, but here it is

                              https://prototypenutrition.com/collections/all-products/products/11-kt-spray-original-formula

                              In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

                              alfredoolivasA MauritioM 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • alfredoolivasA
                                alfredoolivas @jamezb46
                                last edited by

                                @jamezb46 Really good doses, 250mg of 11-KT per dose, using alcohol based solvents! It's a massive bottle and a single dose is 50 sprays, it isn't clear how many doses are in a bottle though.

                                jamezb46J 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • MauritioM
                                  Mauritio @jamezb46
                                  last edited by Mauritio

                                  @jamezb46
                                  Iron legion also sell it for much less.
                                  https://iron-legion.com/products/xi-kt

                                  "Conversely, 11-KT did not activate estrogen receptor-mediated transactivation in aromatase-expressed MCF-7 cells, whereas testosterone did following conversion to estrogen. 11-KT did not affect the estrogen/estrogen receptor -mediated cell proliferation of MCF-7 cells. Furthermore, it significantly inhibited cell proliferation when androgen receptor was transfected into MCF-7 cells."
                                  https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/101/10/3582/2764896#:~:text=Conversely%2C 11-KT did,into MCF-7 cells.

                                  It also seems to be able to fill in for testosterone functionally. At least it does so when you chemically castrate men.
                                  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33974560/

                                  1000013729.png

                                  Dare to think.

                                  My X:
                                  x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • jamezb46J
                                    jamezb46 @alfredoolivas
                                    last edited by

                                    @alfredoolivas 7.2 grams 11KT per bottle, 29 doses per bottle

                                    In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • MauritioM
                                      Mauritio
                                      last edited by

                                      What do you guys think of laxogenin?

                                      Its very similar to diosgenin, which increases DHT and DHEA.
                                      And its available for purchase.

                                      https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9151512/

                                      Dare to think.

                                      My X:
                                      x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                                      jamezb46J C 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • jamezb46J
                                        jamezb46 @Mauritio
                                        last edited by

                                        @Mauritio

                                        The paper you linked refers to the synthetic 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin.

                                        That compound is different from the naturally occurring laxogenin, which is used in Chinese medicine.

                                        In fact, the FDA has declared the sale of 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin (5AHL) in supplements to be illegal:
                                        (https://www.usada.org/spirit-of-sport/illegal-ingredient-5-alpha-hydroxy-laxogenin-supplements/g)

                                        5AHL is thought to be synthesized from diosgenin, so perhaps that is where you're getting the association.

                                        Now, although the study you linked was about the synthetic derivative, one thing did catch my eye about the structure of laxogenin.

                                        Laxogenin

                                        images.png

                                        6-OXO

                                        imgsrv.png

                                        Notice how both compounds have a ketone group on position 6. The latter (6-OXO) is known to be an effective aromatase inhibitor and significantly increased the concentration of T and DHT when given in doses of 300 or 600 mg/day to men.

                                        https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2100070/

                                        The 6-OXO is a suicidal AI, and it's obvious that the 3 unsaturations in the A-ring allow it to have that property.

                                        It is possible that Laxogenin might also function as an AI if somehow the necessary double bonds were introduced when it gets metabolized. I doubt that can happen though.

                                        It is also possible that laxogenin also has its own anabolic or androgenic activity independent of aromatase inhibition.

                                        In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

                                        MauritioM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • MauritioM
                                          Mauritio @jamezb46
                                          last edited by

                                          @jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:

                                          The paper you linked refers to the synthetic 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin.

                                          Yes, that's what most people are referring to when they mention laxogenin

                                          @jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:

                                          In fact, the FDA has declared the sale of 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin (5AHL) in supplements to be illegal:

                                          In Europe it's widely available. Just found one for 40€ . It just seems hit or miss if there's actually laxogenin in there .

                                          @jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:

                                          It is possible that Laxogenin might also function as an AI if somehow the necessary double bonds were introduced when it gets metabolized. I doubt that can happen though.

                                          Im just going to try it out. Some people notice nothing , some say it's great.

                                          Dare to think.

                                          My X:
                                          x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                                          jamezb46J alfredoolivasA 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • jamezb46J
                                            jamezb46 @Mauritio
                                            last edited by

                                            @Mauritio

                                            Any reason to go with 5AHL over Tribulus Terrestris?

                                            In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life

                                            MauritioM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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