Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?
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Patrick arnold is still selling 11-KT.
Pretty expensive, but here it is
https://prototypenutrition.com/collections/all-products/products/11-kt-spray-original-formula
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@jamezb46 Really good doses, 250mg of 11-KT per dose, using alcohol based solvents! It's a massive bottle and a single dose is 50 sprays, it isn't clear how many doses are in a bottle though.
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@jamezb46
Iron legion also sell it for much less.
https://iron-legion.com/products/xi-kt"Conversely, 11-KT did not activate estrogen receptor-mediated transactivation in aromatase-expressed MCF-7 cells, whereas testosterone did following conversion to estrogen. 11-KT did not affect the estrogen/estrogen receptor -mediated cell proliferation of MCF-7 cells. Furthermore, it significantly inhibited cell proliferation when androgen receptor was transfected into MCF-7 cells."
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/101/10/3582/2764896#:~:text=Conversely%2C 11-KT did,into MCF-7 cells.It also seems to be able to fill in for testosterone functionally. At least it does so when you chemically castrate men.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33974560/
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@alfredoolivas 7.2 grams 11KT per bottle, 29 doses per bottle
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What do you guys think of laxogenin?
Its very similar to diosgenin, which increases DHT and DHEA.
And its available for purchase.Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
The paper you linked refers to the synthetic 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin.
That compound is different from the naturally occurring laxogenin, which is used in Chinese medicine.
In fact, the FDA has declared the sale of 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin (5AHL) in supplements to be illegal:
(https://www.usada.org/spirit-of-sport/illegal-ingredient-5-alpha-hydroxy-laxogenin-supplements/g)5AHL is thought to be synthesized from diosgenin, so perhaps that is where you're getting the association.
Now, although the study you linked was about the synthetic derivative, one thing did catch my eye about the structure of laxogenin.
Laxogenin
6-OXO
Notice how both compounds have a ketone group on position 6. The latter (6-OXO) is known to be an effective aromatase inhibitor and significantly increased the concentration of T and DHT when given in doses of 300 or 600 mg/day to men.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2100070/
The 6-OXO is a suicidal AI, and it's obvious that the 3 unsaturations in the A-ring allow it to have that property.
It is possible that Laxogenin might also function as an AI if somehow the necessary double bonds were introduced when it gets metabolized. I doubt that can happen though.
It is also possible that laxogenin also has its own anabolic or androgenic activity independent of aromatase inhibition.
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@jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:
The paper you linked refers to the synthetic 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin.
Yes, that's what most people are referring to when they mention laxogenin
@jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:
In fact, the FDA has declared the sale of 5-alpha-hydroxylaxogenin (5AHL) in supplements to be illegal:
In Europe it's widely available. Just found one for 40€ . It just seems hit or miss if there's actually laxogenin in there .
@jamezb46 said in Adamantyl Ester Steroids: The Ultimate Androgen?:
It is possible that Laxogenin might also function as an AI if somehow the necessary double bonds were introduced when it gets metabolized. I doubt that can happen though.
Im just going to try it out. Some people notice nothing , some say it's great.
Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
Any reason to go with 5AHL over Tribulus Terrestris?
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@Mauritio I believe the benefits might come from simply consuming high quantities of a fully saturated lipophilic compound, and its effects on the lipophilicty of the cell membrane.
If you are consuming hundreds of milligrams of this fully saturated lipohiloc molecule, there is a likely hood that it will have an affinity to the phospholipid bilayer and its presence will make it more lipophilic.
More lipophilic cell membranes increase the affinity and downstream conversion of steroids, increasing the 5-AR pool of steroids within the cell.
Me and @jamezb46 came up with some compelling studies to show that increasing lipophilicity of the cell increases uptake of steroids and their metabolism, and caffeine can do this in humans, as shown by caffeine increasing the concentration of anavar by 20x, increasing its half life & metabolism. Anecdotally, after drinking 7 tea spoons of instant coffee mixed with coffees throughout the day, I have noticeably seen my muscles swell and look bigger as if I am on double the dose of testosterone.
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@jamezb46 For me? I've tried tribulus and didn't like it.
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I thought it was a slightly unsaturated molecule ...
Nice theory. But couldn't all of this be explained by caffeine increasing liver health, leading to faster(first pass)metabolism ?
Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
@Mauritio Liver health takes a while to improve right? Furthermore, this involved a single administration of a normal dose of caffeine to a regular caffeine consumer. Any potential improvements in liver health would have already occurred due to the subject’s habitual caffeine consumption. However, these effects did not manifest in the absence of caffeine.
It's saturated, has a bit of a mental structure.
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I think that the lipophilic derivative of caffeine, pentoxifylline should be even better in that regard than caffeine.
Pentoxifylline
Caffeine
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@alfredoolivas Its structure is similar to Brassinosteroids. Those are the active ingredients in "pine pollen" supplements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassinosteroid
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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31381816/
Derivatives of brassinosteroids are known to be anti-estrogenic (studied for breast cancer)
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@jamezb46
Well, 5a hydroxy laxogenin and laxogenin are brassinosteroids, so that makes them even more interesting with androgenic, and potential anti-estrogenic effects. They're basically plant anabolic steroids, leading to plant growth . -
"Brassinosteroids are plant-derived polyhydroxylated derivatives of 5a-cholestane, structurally similar to cholesterol-derived animal steroid hormones and insect ecdysteroids, with no known function in mammals. 28-Homobrassinolide (HB), a steroidal lactone with potent plant growth-promoting property, stimulated protein synthesis and inhibited protein degradation in L6 rat skeletal muscle cells..."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3177571/This brassinosteroid increases steroidogenic enzymes and testosterone.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23012313/ -
5a hydroxy laxogenin and related compounds might have anti cancer effects.
Further corroborating its non-estrogenicity/anti-estrogenic effects.https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0968089612001198
I found this Dutch company that sells 5a hydroxy laxogenin powder. 5g just 15€.
They also carry PRL-5-53, which I had on my "maybe" list for a quite a while.
https://dutchsarms.nl/de/products/laxogenin-poeder -
@alfredoolivas and @jamezb46: Thanks for confirming that OP's premise re "torching the liver" isn't a compelling motivation for what he suggests--separate from the other relevant critiques of the OP's conjecture and going down rabbit holes to chase 10-year-old conjectures by Haidut.
I second what @alfredoolivas wrote advocating for people bringing more of their own thinking to the forum, their own evidence, and their own experiences, rather than languishing in an echo-chamber around a single guru. You and others on this thread are exemplary contributors of new ideas and well-argued skepticism. We should indeed be challenging each other's thinking to learn and improve, while encouraging each other to continue posting original conjectures. And quickly tearing down bad ones re-focuses attention on generating and evaluating new ones. I like what happened in this thread and wish OP would like it, too--collaborative jousting in a competitive idea space.
@Mauritio : Duly noted that there's a mechanism and some evidence that oral androsterone is likely beneficial for the liver.
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@Mauritio said:
What do you guys think of laxogenin?
Im just going to try it out. Some people notice nothing , some say it's great.
I found this Dutch company that sells 5a hydroxy laxogenin powder. 5g just 15€.
What dose are you going to trial? Intuitively I would assume it to require at least +-1g pd as the linked study showed effects starting at 25-50µg/mL in vitro. I'm curious about what dose-finding calculations you're applying.
