Glucose loading cures everything?
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I'm also 3 months on the protocol. My husband too. He is doing really well and I have good and bad days, but remember Dr. Stephens says it takes 4 to 12 months for your body to heal. Older people with more advanced pathology may take longer. It seems people are trying it for a day or a week, decide it doesn't work and just stop. I'm giving it the full test.
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for sharing! I've been reading, but not had the energy to post. I've had similar thoughts and questions, and also had the impression that people saw relief right away. That's not happened for me yet.
@S.Holmes, so he says at least 4 months before you may see some results? I had missed that. I am planning to stick with it 6-9 months, as that's what he suggested. In the video I've seen where he talks about it, I think he said 9 months for people older than 70?
I started at the beginning of July. I had some increase in energy the first month, and then - I think - my immune system started waking up. I had two 36 hour very obvious immune responses, and then a bunch of smaller ones, lasting a few hours. Whatever it's fighting in the chest it's not won yet - I also sense it's fighting something in the brain.
I have a wonderful GP and have benefited from her perspective on a regular basis; it's easy to focus on what isn't better, but there are also many positive changes - and if this is the immune system waking up, I believe that is major.
I'm trying to be patient and think that if this was an active infection and my immune system was fighting something, it may take weeks or even months to fight off a pathogen. From what I understand the Itaconate shunt is activated by the innate immune system (which we are born with), and when the adaptive immune system turns on it's switched "off" - and that the issues many of us have is because the adaptive immune system never takes over, so the Itaconate shunt continues.
I have much more brain fog than I did in July, and didn't have the capacity now to double check if I understand it correctly, but if anyone wants to and have the capacity Rob Phair talks about this in this video: [https://youtu.be/PCnkkLlyVMk?si=Qqnjpp1vWus6N4Fa](link url); chapters Krebs cycle and Consequences, and perhaps more.
That leaves room for reactivation of viruses, from what I can gather, and that's certainly been the case for me. I'm hopeful that what's happening now is good long term.
If this is the immune system fighting something that would explain why my cycle is affected negatively. I'm curious if anyone has a similar experience. Anyone with a cycle, who's been doing this for 3 months or more?
I forgot to mention I've switched to 3x4 and 2 tbsp before bedtime, totalling 14 a day. The two times I've tried 3 at night I get a brutal stomach ache, which I don't do during the day, so I'm sticking with 2. Every hour worked well for me at the beginning, I think I store glucose poorly, so it made sense. Then my gut feeling said to switch a couple of weeks ago.
Overall lots of my markers are positive, and I'm not having many issues with the protocol. But I'm quite exhausted and feel introverted. I'm taking it as a sign to not do much, and hope this will allow my body to do what it needs to.
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@gentlepotato said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
Hi everyone,
Thanks for sharing! I've been reading, but not had the energy to post. I've had similar thoughts and questions, and also had the impression that people saw relief right away. That's not happened for me yet.
@S.Holmes, so he says at least 4 months before you may see some results? I had missed that. I am planning to stick with it 6-9 months, as that's what he suggested. In the video I've seen where he talks about it, I think he said 9 months for people older than 70?
I started at the beginning of July. I had some increase in energy the first month, and then - I think - my immune system started waking up. I had two 36 hour very obvious immune responses, and then a bunch of smaller ones, lasting a few hours. Whatever it's fighting in the chest it's not won yet - I also sense it's fighting something in the brain.
I have a wonderful GP and have benefited from her perspective on a regular basis; it's easy to focus on what isn't better, but there are also many positive changes - and if this is the immune system waking up, I believe that is major.
I'm trying to be patient and think that if this was an active infection and my immune system was fighting something, it may take weeks or even months to fight off a pathogen. From what I understand the Itaconate shunt is activated by the innate immune system (which we are born with), and when the adaptive immune system turns on it's switched "off" - and that the issues many of us have is because the adaptive immune system never takes over, so the Itaconate shunt continues.
I have much more brain fog than I did in July, and didn't have the capacity now to double check if I understand it correctly, but if anyone wants to and have the capacity Rob Phair talks about this in this video: [https://youtu.be/PCnkkLlyVMk?si=Qqnjpp1vWus6N4Fa](link url); chapters Krebs cycle and Consequences, and perhaps more.
That leaves room for reactivation of viruses, from what I can gather, and that's certainly been the case for me. I'm hopeful that what's happening now is good long term.
If this is the immune system fighting something that would explain why my cycle is affected negatively. I'm curious if anyone has a similar experience. Anyone with a cycle, who's been doing this for 3 months or more?
I forgot to mention I've switched to 3x4 and 2 tbsp before bedtime, totalling 14 a day. The two times I've tried 3 at night I get a brutal stomach ache, which I don't do during the day, so I'm sticking with 2. Every hour worked well for me at the beginning, I think I store glucose poorly, so it made sense. Then my gut feeling said to switch a couple of weeks ago.
Overall lots of my markers are positive, and I'm not having many issues with the protocol. But I'm quite exhausted and feel introverted. I'm taking it as a sign to not do much, and hope this will allow my body to do what it needs to.
Thank you for your feedback! I had some viral flare ups about 1 month in. One was particularly painful (shingles), but none in weeks. I still have some issues, headaches, allergies, but many symptoms came and went and haven't come back. I also think supplements can be an issue. Dr Stephens says when the macros (glucose being the primary one) are being met, you may find the micros can be reduced or eliminated. I think that's because digestion is improved and we start getting more of them from food. That seems to have happened with me.
Fatigue can be an issue, but the body uses a lot of energy when it's healing. I find I do need a midday rest.
I'm fascinated with the itaconate shunt theory, but I don't know if it has been fully proven yet. I looked for research updates a few weeks ago and didn't find any.
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I've thought the same about deficiencies becoming less of a problem when the system works better. Not only because of digestion, but if you have multiple shunts you'll have imbalances and likely deficiencies, and when that's avoided micro nutrients are not used up as fast and can be used for the intended jobs.
I'm fascinated with the itaconate shunt theory, but I don't know if it has been fully proven yet.
Do that mean if Itaconate Shunt hypothesis specifically for ME/CFS has been fully proven? No one is suggesting it has been fully proven, it's still a hypothesis. That said, lots of fairly established truths in medicine are hypothesis and not fully proven. There's even been very established truths in medicine that were never researched, until a hypothesis and new research challenged the old approach.
I enjoy hypothesis because they're more see through. They are works in progress and in this case the hypothesis is explained in great detail, which means we can discuss the details! Is there anything specific about the hypothesis that doesn't resonate for you?
I looked for research updates a few weeks ago and didn't find any.
The ME/CFS researchers I've linked to are leading researchers on the hypothesis and the hypothesis is not the only thing they're working on, but I assume they (and other ME/CFS researchers) are basing their other research (creating a biomarker and/or treatments that work) on that hypothesis. I don't think you'll find research on the specific hypothesis on a regular basis, it may take years between every time they present new findings.
Thorough research takes a lot of time, but in this case it's also in large part because it's so hard to get funding for ME/CFS studies, unfortunately. Like I've said before I think that's an issue for medicine overall, because if you understand ME/CFS you may understand a lot of other illnesses. I also think the overall disregard for ME/CFS means that researchers in other fields aren't curious about this important research, and therefore it won't spread to other fields even if it would be applicable. It's incredibly sad to see the ramifications of the gasligthing and misinformation about the diagnosis.
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@gentlepotato said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
I've thought the same about deficiencies becoming less of a problem when the system works better. Not only because of digestion, but if you have multiple shunts you'll have imbalances and likely deficiencies, and when that's avoided micro nutrients are not used up as fast and can be used for the intended jobs.
I'm fascinated with the itaconate shunt theory, but I don't know if it has been fully proven yet.
Do that mean if Itaconate Shunt hypothesis specifically for ME/CFS has been fully proven? No one is suggesting it has been fully proven, it's still a hypothesis. That said, lots of fairly established truths in medicine are hypothesis and not fully proven. There's even been very established truths in medicine that were never researched, until a hypothesis and new research challenged the old approach.
I enjoy hypothesis because they're more see through. They are works in progress and in this case the hypothesis is explained in great detail, which means we can discuss the details! Is there anything specific about the hypothesis that doesn't resonate for you?
I looked for research updates a few weeks ago and didn't find any.
The ME/CFS researchers I've linked to are leading researchers on the hypothesis and the hypothesis is not the only thing they're working on, but I assume they (and other ME/CFS researchers) are basing their other research (creating a biomarker and/or treatments that work) on that hypothesis. I don't think you'll find research on the specific hypothesis on a regular basis, it may take years between every time they present new findings.
Thorough research takes a lot of time, but in this case it's also in large part because it's so hard to get funding for ME/CFS studies, unfortunately. Like I've said before I think that's an issue for medicine overall, because if you understand ME/CFS you may understand a lot of other illnesses. I also think the overall disregard for ME/CFS means that researchers in other fields aren't curious about this important research, and therefore it won't spread to other fields even if it would be applicable. It's incredibly sad to see the ramifications of the gasligthing and misinformation about the diagnosis.
The itaconate shunt is certainly a plausible explanation for glucose limiting effects following injury or trauma. Is it the only explanation? I don't know. All I know is that glucose therapy seems to be working for many. Maybe it reverses the shunt? If you find more information about this, I'm interested.
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can you provide somewhere with a summary of glucose loading protocol and any supportive cites? I can't watch a 1 or 2 hour video generally. I am grateful for your help.
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@Ecstatic_Hamster said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
can you provide somewhere with a summary of glucose loading protocol and any supportive cites? I can't watch a 1 or 2 hour video generally. I am grateful for your help.
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@Peatful said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@Insomniac said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@Peatful Exactly. Ray Peat doesn't even come up in the conversation. They've scrubbed him.
They never understood him.
Is it because the HPA axis becomes more sensitive with every trauma, and more ready to switch into sympathetic mode, stress cascade and ultimately more fat metabolism, inhibiting glucose metabolism. Maybe flooding the system with glucose stops the stress hormones from needing to be activated and slowly over time this makes the HPA axis less reactive through neuroplastic pathways being desensitised.
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Sorry, the above comment is in response to the question.”Why is glucose to the brain down regulated after every trauma?”
I’m new here and have messed up the quotebox!
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@josh said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@Peatful said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@Insomniac said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@Peatful Exactly. Ray Peat doesn't even come up in the conversation. They've scrubbed him.
They never understood him.
Is it because the HPA axis becomes more sensitive with every trauma, and more ready to switch into sympathetic mode, stress cascade and ultimately more fat metabolism, inhibiting glucose metabolism. Maybe flooding the system with glucose stops the stress hormones from needing to be activated and slowly over time this makes the HPA axis less reactive through neuroplastic pathways being desensitised.
That sounds reasonable to me. Will take a closer look.
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@josh said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
Is it because the HPA axis becomes more sensitive with every trauma, and more ready to switch into sympathetic mode, stress cascade and ultimately more fat metabolism, inhibiting glucose metabolism. Maybe flooding the system with glucose stops the stress hormones from needing to be activated and slowly over time this makes the HPA axis less reactive through neuroplastic pathways being desensitised.
Do you have any sources for this understanding of the HPA axis? That the HPA axis "becomes sensitive", what does that mean? The neuroplastic approach is a very mental one, often seen mentioned by people who believe in the biopsychosocial model. I'd say it's very far from a bioenergetic approach.
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@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
The itaconate shunt is certainly a plausible explanation for glucose limiting effects following injury or trauma. Is it the only explanation? I don't know. All I know is that glucose therapy seems to be working for many. Maybe it reverses the shunt? If you find more information about this, I'm interested.
I wonder if there's a misunderstanding, in regard to your previous posts, as well, before the one quoted here? I'm the only person who has written about the Itaconate Shunt as a possible explanation for glucose limitations, and why glucose might help reestablish the Krebs cycle. No new actual research is incoming about that. And I'm not looking for information to fully prove what I called an educated speculation, nor am I suggesting that it's the only explanation. I'm also not trying to persuade anyone; if it doesn't resonate (fully) for you, that's okay.
For me this kind of educated speculation (with sources etc) is an exploration, a tool, that allows me to give what is happening a framework. But it's more of a starting point for exploration; I'm not writing or sharing to conclude, and I'm quick to depart from a framework if reality doesn't fit in it.
I recognize my limitations and have a lot of humility about it all; I'm not here to do scientists work, and I think I've done a decent job at recognizing and pointing out the limits of my knowledge, as I'm sharing my speculations. I'm also not interested in being right, and when scientists (or anyone) find a more nuanced, better or completely different explanation, I'll applaud the work and be curious to read it.
All that said, the speculations I've shared are still a great tool for me. I wrote the speculation in July, before what I believe is my immune system started waking up. I wasn't expecting that to happen, because I didn't understand the immune system component of the Itaconate shunt back then. But when my immune system started waking up, I went back to my speculation, and it helped me make sense of what started happening. And that made it easier to rest and be patient, and not loose hope. It made it easier to hold the fear, when I got worse again. And it gave me a language so it is easier to speak to my GP about what is happening.
That way it's an incredibly helpful tool, and for me that's one of the best things I can hope for with this amateur dabbling into science. I'm delighted if it can be a supportive tool for others too, but I have zero expectation that it will resonate for everyone.
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@S-Holmes thanks!!
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Could somebody please maybe @gentlepotato or @S-Holmes share what is your current status and the status before the glucose loading protocol. What s gettin better what isnt still improved and how is the general wellbeing/health before/now maybe out of 10 or in precentage
Thanks in advance
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@Mr-X and another thing i have at the moment some huge gallblader/liver problems. This area is really tight and painful/stuck and so on. Ive try to combat this with hot water and TUDCA. I dont want to further burden the liver/gallbladder. Do you guys think the glucuse will directly the soaking up by the brain and will not end uo fettening the liver up like fructose?
Thx guys
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New guy here looking for optimal health.
Reading and learning a little everyday.
English is not my first language. My writing might sound a little confusing.Few things in practice:
- No/low PUFA
- More calories and more carbs
- More sugar(table sugar) and salt.
Just something i have been experimenting and it might have something positive about it which i can't explain.
I started to drink water+sugar everyday 3x per day
- 300ml of water
- 10 spoon of sugar
Seeping a little is ok but drinking a glass at once feels disgusting.
Unless i add some lemon juice or pineapple. With half a lemon i can drink the whole cup and feel wanting more.
So, just an idea to test.
Could there be any difference between:Ingesting dextrose capsule
Drinking dextrose + water
Drinking dextrose+water+lemon juice (or another fruit)
I think there might be some difference in the results because my water+sugar+lemon tastes so much better than only water+sugar, which i feel nauseated trying to drink it.
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Experience update:
13 weeks into dextrose now (3 months). At c. 70grs (8-9 tbsps) 5 times/day.@CrumblingCookie said:
I am thinking that a lot of the supplements and supposed remedies I had been taking over the years were all in wain. Especially, I am thinking many (the potentially most beneficial of them) exacerbated the glucose deficiency dilemma. Consequently, I am thinking that now that I am providing sufficient glucose, I may need to rewind and redo/retry all the "good" supplements because only now they become both able to be used and necessary as cofactors for every cellular and organ function.
I a way, this would mean back to square one and a reevaluation of all supplements and remedies I know since long ago and which I had previously used and discarded.Along the thoughts above and my observations that I've been feeling the needs for a certain minimum of mainly extra b1 and b6 (and even extra methylfolate after not having eaten veggies for a couple of days),
I was wondering whether I could benefit from some ω-3 fatty acids to supply a maybe increased nervous system regeneration by the glucose fuelling, as perhaps my body can't keep up with the needed FA conversions or is too inhibited in doing so by stored ω-6 AA and LA.
So, mere speculation, followed by trial.
And error.I was taking a mere 3grs or even only 2grs of a high quality non-rancid cod oil ω-3 and became super cold, freezing, dumbed down in all senses and thinking for over half a day afterwards. Repeatedly.
This is a super sensitive reaction to PUFAs. It made me pay more attention to the effects of any sunflower oil (ω-6 LA!) ingredients in foods like frozen potato fries or little waffles.
Those showed the same effects but in a more sneaky, much less obvious and more delayed way.
I can't say whether the glucose protocol has heightened my PUFA sensitivity itself or my awareness to its effects. Just want to share this info.Since I've been reacting well to drinking H202, especially at night before going to bed for less miserable and deeper sleep, I've been thinking:
I am providing all the fuel (glucose) and the means to get it into the cells (potassium, chloride) and process it (b vitamins + very little vit c).
Yet, still, the cellular energy metabolism capacity is remaining very low.
I am still hoping that somehow, over time, this will sort itself out.
As many others in their respective conditions, however, I am having doubts about the glucose fuelling being sufficient all by its own.
H202 improves things for a while for me. Maybe that's in part through overcoming the incapacitated peroxisomes in thyroid follicles.
So, two weeks ago, I've started taking T4+T3 every morning.(Btw, while reading some of the previous posts about the always resurging doubts of progress I remembered DS said, very early on in one of his presentations, that it is very easy and almost typical for many of his patients to not see and recognize their various improvements since their changes are so subtle and marginally slow that they only became obvious to the observer and the patients themselves when he kept asking them about the occurence and severity of their prior symptoms or compared their original testing with later ones).
*crosslink to PUFA experiences thread ->https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/2714/share-your-pufa-story** -
@CrumblingCookie thx for your feedback and your insides. How much Glucose are you taking per day?
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@Mr-X said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
Could somebody please maybe @gentlepotato or @S-Holmes share what is your current status and the status before the glucose loading protocol. What s gettin better what isnt still improved and how is the general wellbeing/health before/now maybe out of 10 or in precentage
Thanks in advance
I don't have time at the moment to write a comprehensive report, but here is a quick update. Mine (and husbands) temperatures have never been better, and they're consistent. Our BP is great. His normally runs high but it has been lower on glucose. My oxygen saturation has improved too. (His has always been good.) Our moods have been stable. Depression is improving (me). Because of fibromyalgia, the journey has been more bumpy for me than my husband. I still have some issues, but I recognize that in healing, some inflammation is necessary. My shingles outbreak was very painful but lasted less than a week. The last time I had intense shoulder inflammation/shingles it lasted months and I had to see a doctor for it.
I'm not "there" yet, and it may take many more months. I'll report back as time permits.
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@S-Holmes thank you for your report. Look forward to any updates you have time for.
