Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists

[LucH]

Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists

Context in short:

We can handle a small amount of oxalates. When we overload the liver, we need more sulfur; we need sulfur to neutralize oxalate. However, oxalate and sulfate use the same transporter to enter our body. An overloaded liver will have increased difficulty exchanging a sulfur molecule for an oxalate molecule.
If we do not have sufficient sulfur intake or if the liver does not keep up, then we will lose the capacity for methylation. Some useful nutrients will no longer be available, such as B6. The problems will then increase: lack of enzymes, dysregulation of neurotransmitters, impact on liver (detox and homeostasis), assimilation of macronutrients, gene activation, etc. Different pathologies will soon arise. (1)

Internet sources will keep you feeling perplexed or lost about oxalates in food

Oxalates have the capacity to pass through the gastrointestinal tract and can contribute to common gut issues such as constipation, gas, bloating, diarrhea, and more. This situation occurs most likely by people suffering from leaky gut, but in primary dysbiosis state as well.
Of course we can manage to attenuate the side-effects and moderate or prevent inconveniences (e.g. CaOx). I’ll give a link later, in this post.
As Jill Harris, LPN, CHC has stated (2), oxalate levels vary much: “While the values may differ depending on factors such as growing conditions and measurement methods, the overall advice remains the same: Eat all foods except almonds and spinach products in normal portions”.
You may have noticed there are plenty of lists, from respectable organisms / authorities, like the University of Michigan, St. Joseph's Healthcare System in Canada, Harvard or Chicago University, and the list goes on. But the list hasn’t been updated much. (3)
For example, 2 fruits have changed from category:

• Blueberries have changed from low to medium content, in Harvard update (November 2023): 18.5mg for 1/2 cup (120 ml). (New entry).
• Raspberries have changed from medium to low content in Harvard update, from 24 mg to 2.5 mg for ½ cup (120 ml) (https://oxalate.org). No explanation has been given nor the conditions for harvest. So, it shouldn’t be kept as main source.
  As Sally Norton mentions it: “Most list makers fail to mention where they got their information, let alone who did the testing, and by which methods. Nor do the list makers bother to explain their rationale for designating foods as “high” or “low” in oxalate. And they rarely (if ever) revisit old information and update it.” (4)
  So I don’t pretend holding the truth or the right list, although I can get close when I use Luc’s pendulum
  General situation
  Oxalates are natural compounds found in vegetables, legumes, fruits, nuts and grains that plants use for regulating calcium levels and for defense from insects or grazing animals, as the calcium oxalates can form hard, undesirable crystal-like formations. (5) As you can guess, it may be very painful (…).
  While this binding function of antinutrients is generally useful for plants, it can have the opposite effect on us when they bind to nutrients we want in our bodies, leaving us unable to access them.

Variability of oxalate content

The oxalate content of food can vary considerably between plants of the same species, due to differences in climate, soil quality, state of ripeness, or even which part of the plant is analyzed. Variations also may be caused by the different methods used for measuring oxalate in food.
Another example of confusion: Medjool dates. I’ll give “sources” at the end of this article.
Parenthesis (You can jump to next paragraph “How much Ox” if you want to avoid digression)
Recently I warn a forumer here, whose main sources of carbs were dates and honey, that he could get problems with several Medjool dates. He thanked me because he wasn’t aware of but soon after he came back, saying he had read the contrary. He was reassured in his food choices. Logical attitude but perhaps erroneous, according to my analysis. Why?
I said “perhaps” because I don’t pretend holding the truth. My objective is to set arguments and trustful sources.
My objective here is to present arguments, emanating from official organizations, from health agents with adequate field practice. I will give you my feeling but you’ll be able to form your own opinion with the references if you want / can because when you navigate in the fog, it is complicated to see things clearly. Indeed, some of you will also have to delegate. I repeat it for new members of this forum: I have no medicine degree nor deep biochemical formation.
I am a retired teacher, who is interested in health and nutrition, who decided to take care of himself around the age of 50 when traditional medicine showed its limits with my mom (T2D). Very good in the event of a crisis – fracture or operation – but much less in terms of prevention.
End of Part 1. To be continued on next post.

[LucH]

How much oxalate is low, medium or high?

Before answering this question, we need to understand there is no one_option_fits_all.
I’ve made 3 categories

1° You eat 1000 mg Ca per day. You have the ability to deal with 150 – 250 mg oxalate a day. (6)

Note: The optimal ratio is 40 mg Ca for 80 mg Oxalate to prevent CaOx (1/3 calcium).
Let’s say you don’t bother because you know how to manage oxalates and you don’t suffer from leaking gut nor dysbiosis. (…)

2° You suffer from leaky gut or dysbiosis. You vary your food sources.

*> 5; **>15; **>50 mg
You’d better follow a low oxalate diet, and not take magnesium supplement at a meal when there is calcium. (7) Too long to explain here why. See “Sources & References” (7)
You don't often use the same green vegetable of the same family in a smoothie; you don't get your carbs just from fruit and honey; you don't eat a carrot salad every day, twice a day, because you follow a long-term detox diet, without taking breaks every 2 or 3 weeks to let the body breathe and reload with energy; you do not eat the same source at breakfast and midday because you find it more convenient.
However, if this source is recurring but spaced out (rotating every 5 days, but in cycles of a few days, for practical reasons), without having studied the possibility of disadvantages in terms of contraindications, you would then do well to change the caution level if you don’t want to change your habits, before it becomes too late (excessive painting for pedagogic purpose).

3° When suffering from methylation conversion

*>15; **>25; ***>50 mg; (*4 = 200 mg or more)
=> 3 levels according to TLO list (simplified version). ( 8 ) Low – medium – High (High level is anything behind 25 mg). I add one level (> 200 mg = *4) for people drinking smoothie and eating a plate filled with two thirds of vegetables (or often eating a lot of raw vegetables as a starter twice a day). They know how to manage. Shortly said: calcium citrate and dairies. They use methylated forms of vitamins B complex (but please not every day with a B50 complex: 2x/wk or a higher dose for B1, at least 100 mg. Otherwise it could stimulate cell growth (cancer). Need to be detailed but not now, not here.
If both alleles of the gene MTHFR are defective, your liver is completely inoperative, that is to say that you then suffer from a deficit in genetic functioning, which causes difficulties in metabolizing some molecules. It remains to be seen whether or not the body has the capacity to level off via another pathway. Make a search with Methylation defect if you want to go deeper …
End of Part 2. To be continued on next post for references.

[LucH]

Sources and References

1. Impact négatif de l’oxalate sur le métabolisme : Chaos biochimique !
   https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1959-impact-negatif-de-loxalate-sur-le-metabolisme-chaos-biochimique#28275
   => Why and how excess oxalate, not modulated by the intake of food or useful molecules, can be the cause of a lot of health problems. That’s an understatement! (In French, translator needed).
2. Why oxalate levels vary so much – By Jill Harris, LPN, CHC. May 3, 2024
   https://kidneystonediet.com/why-do-oxalate-levels-vary/

• update of Harvard list
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k5IQFfS5Is
  => Click to open hidden text.
  00:00 Introduction: Harvard's Updated Oxalate List
  09:05 The Importance of Fluids, Calcium, and Balanced Nutrition
  14:13 Portion Sizes and the Role of Advice
  Who is Jill HARRIS?
  Jill is a nurse and health coach that specializes in educating patients on kidney stone prevention. For more than 20 years she's helped patients understand that kidney stones can be prevented with the right treatment plan. It's one thing to be told to lower oxalate or drink more water, but HOW do you do it? That's where she comes in. Through the educational resources at https://kidneystonediet.com, stone formers can learn everything they need to know to significantly lower new stone risk.

3. Link for updated list (new additions) from Harvard, per serving size. 11/2023
   https://kidneystonediet.com/updated-oxalate-list-from-harvard/
4. Online Lists Will Keep You Feeling Confused About Oxalates in Foods
   https://sallyknorton.com/oxalates-in-foods-how-to-make-sense-of-the-data/
5. Calcium Oxalate in plants. Franceschi, V. (2001)
   https://www.foodunfolded.com/article/what-are-antinutrients#ref1
6. Excretion of oxalates
   https://kidneystones.uchicago.edu/2015/11/16/how-to-eat-a-low-oxalate-diet/
   One can consider a whole food 1000 mg calcium 50 mg oxalate as a usable low oxalate diet, and a 150 – 250 mg oxalate diet as relatively high. The balance between diet calcium and diet oxalate does not matter greatly if diet calcium is high. Among normal men and women eating 1000 mg/day of calcium and 750 mg/day of food oxalate, 24 hour urine calcium was about 110 mg/day and oxalate about 44 mg/day.

When diet calcium is at least 1000 mg daily the balance of calcium to oxalate within any one meal is not likely to affect stone risk.

If diet calcium is high, as it should be, at about 1000 mg per day, then one should try to limit diet oxalate below 100 mg daily.
Note: Bone broth and collagen supply is not a good plan if you bring ¼ of your proteins from these sources, rich in hydroxyproline.
Oral loading with gelatin can raise urine oxalate
=> Ten normal people eating a 1000 mg calcium, 150 mg oxalate diet (typical normal level) were fed supplemental gelatin as one quarter of daily protein intake. Urine oxalate was 24 mg daily vs. 17 mg daily when the same diet was supplemented with whey protein – containing little hydroxyproline – as a control. So lots of jello is not an ideal plan for stone formers.
7) Do not take a magnesium supplement with a rich oxalate food.
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2061-comment-eliminer-loxalate-oxca-lithiase#29850
See & “Tenue de route”
8. TLO list (simplified version)
Trying Low Oxalates (TLO) group on Facebook (membership required). When you join, just follow the directions there and you will be able to access it (they don't allow to publish the list). Be respectful. https://lowoxalatekitchen.com/blogs/blog/how-to-find-a-reliable-oxalate-list
=> Fruit List from https://lowoxalatekitchen.com/pages/resources
Low Oxalate
● Apples (Gala, Granny Smith, Cox, Fuji, Pink Lady
● Blueberries (up to ½ cup or ~100 grams)
● Grapes (Green, Red)
● Honeydew
● Kumquat
● Lychee
● Passion Fruit
● Tamarind
● Watermelon
Low to Medium Oxalate*
 Apple (Braeburn, Macintosh)
 Avocado (Hass, very ripe) ((Mind the type, note’s editor; it’s the black one)
 Banana
 Cantaloupe
 Cherries
 Cranberries
 Dates
 Grapes (Black)
 Jackfruit
 Mango
 Nectarine
 Pineapple
 Pear (Bartlett/Williams)
 Peach
 Plum
 Strawberries
*The fruits listed under “Low to Medium Oxalate” can still be eaten. They have been put into a separate category because if they are eaten in larger amounts, they can move into the medium oxalate category. I still use them, but just make sure not to overdo it.

How Much Oxalate is Low, Medium or High?
In general, low oxalate foods will have 5mg of oxalate in a serving, between 5-15mg is considered medium, and anything more than 15mg is going to be high. The key phrases here are in general and in a serving. You might have noticed that one list will refer to a food as low oxalate while another refers to it as medium, or one will say a food is medium, and other will say that the same food is high.

Useful link:
*) ## How to get rid of oxalate? Causes and identification
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2061-comment-eliminer-loxalate-oxca-lithiase#29853
=> Useful ingredients (in French, translator needed)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2061-comment-eliminer-loxalate-oxca-lithiase#29851
=> Insoluble and soluble oxalates

[LucH]

Online Sources for Medjool Dates

(you can let fall it but it will avoid sterile discussions and a loss of energy, which is quite stressful and unpleasant).

High but not or not well justified

1. https://ohf.org/fruit-oxalate/ (Oxalosis & Hyperoxaluria Foundation)
   Dates, Chopped 8 mg / 45 gr => 17 mg / 100 g.
2. 24 mg for 1 Medjool date (University of Michigan Health)
   Michigan Medicine: “Foods High in Oxalate.” National Food Institute.
   Date are high in sugar as well as oxalates, with one date containing 24 milligrams. July 18 2024
   https://www.webmd.com/diet/foods-high-in-oxalates
   “Foods high in oxalate” Michigan Medicine, University of Michigan.
3. Al-Zahrani, Khaled S.; Faqeeh, Akram A.; Abdulghani, Zuhair R.; Thomas, Selvin P. (2022). "A review on the physicochemical properties and utilization of date seeds in value-added engineering products". Springer Science and Business Media LLC: 10433–10490.
   doi:10.1007/s00289-021-04048-3.
   => https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00289-021-04048-3 =>Limited to a summary. No details on dates.
4. https://ohf.org/vegetables-oxalate/ (Oxalosis & Hyperoxaluria Foundation)
   Mind these fruits: rhubarb, kiwis, dates, raspberries, oranges, tangerines. This doesn't mean you can never have these healthy treats. But you have to manage (…)

High level of oxalate for Medjool dates (with details)
1) Medjool dates are high in oxalates (18–233 mg/100 g dry weight).
Alahyane, A.; Harrak, H.; Elateri, I; Ayour, J.; Ait-Oubahou, A.; Benichou, M.; et al. (2021). "Evaluation of some nutritional quality criteria of seventeen Moroccan dates varieties and clones, fruits of date palm (Phoenix dactylifera L.)". Brazilian Archives of Biology and Technology. 82: e236471. doi:10.1590/1519-6984.236471. PMID 34105667.
Original Article • Braz. J. Biol. 82 • 2022 • https://doi.org/10.1590/1519-6984.236471
=>Chemical composition of 17 varieties of Moroccan date fruits (Phoenix dactylifera L.) and to determine their nutritive components. The analysis showed that the dates are rich in sugars (51.80-87.98%), they contain low concentration of proteins (1.09-2.80%) and lipids (0.16-0.39%). The predominant mineral is potassium (1055.26-1604.10 mg/100 g DW). Moreover, they contain high concentrations of malic acid (69.48-495.58 mg/100 g (DW)), oxalic acid (18.47-233.35 mg/100 g DW) and tartaric acid (115.70-484.168 mg/100 g DW).
2) TLO list
Trying Low Oxalates (TLO) group on Facebook (membership required). When you join, just follow the directions there and you will be able to access it (they don't allow to publish the list). Be respectful.
https://lowoxalatekitchen.com/blogs/blog/how-to-find-a-reliable-oxalate-list
=> https://lowoxalatekitchen.com/pages/resources
Fruit List (Excerpt)
Low Oxalate
● Apples (Gala, Granny Smith, Cox, Fuji, Pink Lady
● Blueberries (up to ½ cup or ~100 grams)
● Grapes (Green, Red)
● Honeydew
● Kumquat
● Lychee
● Passion Fruit
● Tamarind
● Watermelon
Low to Medium Oxalate*
● Apple (Braeburn, Macintosh)
● Avocado (Hass, very ripe)
● Banana
● Cantaloupe
● Cherries
● Cranberries
● Dates
● Grapes (Black)
● Jackfruit
● Mango
● Nectarine
● Pineapple
● Pear (Bartlett/Williams)
● Peach
● Plum
● Strawberries
*The fruits listed under “Low to Medium Oxalate” can still be eaten. They have been put into a separate category because if they are eaten in larger amounts, they can move into the medium oxalate category. I still use them, but just make sure not to overdo it.

*) Visit the Harvard Nutrient Database
(no Medjool date found)
Harvard has released an updated Oxalate list, providing new information on the oxalate content of various foods.
The values on the list may differ due to factors such as growing conditions and measurement methods.
The overall advice for kidney stone prevention remains the same: eat all foods except almonds and spinach products in normal portions.
Other important factors for kidney stone prevention include getting enough fluids, reducing added sugar and salt, and ensuring adequate calcium intake.
https://kidneystonediet.com/updated-oxalate-list-from-harvard/

Useful link
Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k5IQFfS5Is
By Jill Harris, LPN, CHC. May 3, 2024
https://kidneystonediet.com/why-do-oxalate-levels-vary/
With an update of Harvard list
00:00 Introduction: Harvard's Updated Oxalate List
09:05 The Importance of Fluids, Calcium, and Balanced Nutrition
14:13 Portion Sizes and the Role of Advice
Who is Jill HARRIS?
Jill is a nurse and health coach that specializes in educating patients on kidney stone prevention. For more than 20 years she's helped patients understand that kidney stones can be prevented with the right treatment plan. It's one thing to be told to lower oxalate or drink more water, but HOW do you do it? That's where she comes in. Through the educational resources at https://kidneystonediet.com, stone formers can learn everything they need to know to significantly lower new stone risk.
Excerpt
Harvard has updated its Oxalate list, providing new information on the oxalate content of various foods. The list includes six new pages of information, including foods that have never been studied before. While the values may differ depending on factors such as growing conditions and measurement methods, the overall advice remains the same: eat all foods except almonds and spinach products in normal portions. (Irony) (…)
Get the latest Harvard Oxalate List

*) The opposite sources. Here is one of them. Jill HARRIS speaking.
Note’s editor: Search with: why are oxalate content of *dates so variable?
https://sallyknorton.com/fact-or-fiction-dates-are-low-oxalate-food/ 10/2022
“The Low Oxalate Diet Addendum 2011 Fall- Numerical Values Table.” The VP Foundation Newsletter, no. 36 (November 2011): 17–20.
“The Low Oxalate Diet Addendum 2012 Summer- Numerical Values Table.” The VP Foundation Newsletter, no. 37 (June 2012): 6–9, 19–25.
=> The peer-reviewed medical literature doesn’t include dates in the oxalate data testing reports. However, the VP Foundation sponsored tests of dates performed in Laramie, WY at the University of Wyoming by Dr. Michael Liebman and his team. They tested Medjool dates three times, California-grown Deglet Noor dates once, and another unspecified variety grown in Pakistan.2
According to their reported results, 24 grams of pitted Medjool dates (around one date) contains approximately 1–2 mgs of total oxalate. 24 grams of Deglet Noor dates (about three and a half dates) contain around 2 mg.1 No published testing found over 2.5 mg of oxalate per 24-gram serving.
If Dr. Liebman’s testing is right, dates are low oxalate foods. Yet mainstream sources like WebMD and Harvard incorrectly claim dates are high in oxalate, without offering any citations showing where they got this idea. They also failed to indicate the varieties, rendering the data useless.
These “reputable” and familiar institutions are seemingly reporting oxalate data, but not really. Verifiable testing shows them to be flat out wrong. This misinformation, coupled with a lack of transparency, is adding to the confusion around oxalates.

[Insomniac]

@LucH Is there any reason to avoid oxalates if it's eaten along with lots of calcium and sulfur to neutralize the oxalate?

[yerrag]

@LucH

I'm just glad I never have to deal with oxalate issues. I don't even think I've heard of anyone in my circles in the Philippines ever mentioning a problem with oxalates. Then again, it may be that it exists and that our doctors and healers here are just unaware of it.

Thanks for your effort at trying to clear the confusion on oxalates, but it's more likely that you are simply aggregating information you can scour off the web, from sources that are just as dependent on you for prior research from putative experts who are no more authoritative than having some credentials from some hallowed institution which do no better than Sherlock Holmes in finding the real culprit. For if they really were doing a better job, fixing oxalate issues would not be something that equates to being a modern day Gordian knot or a vexing riddle no one can solve.

It's a nice effort but a lot of value that I expect to get from health forums is the pooling of successful experiences in fixing a health problem common to many in the hope of being able to start with a hypothesis of how a health issue is cured and end with the hypothesis being validated. This has not been happening at all.

Instead, we share what published research says with each other like we have no choice but to rely on such research. Yet I am aware that as much as 3/4 of such research is willingly gamed to confuse and to mislead. The research that arrives at true solutions are never granted funding, and the ones that do are word salads that further litter us with garbage from which we dig the little nuggets of gold that we occasionally find.

While I applaud your earnest efforts to aggregate information, I wish there are more among us that don't just come to the forum to learn something only, but to share something of value that comes from good research, and thinking and connecting the dots, and applying this synthesis into their own context, and sharing true successes in healing themselves.

True learning and sharing cannot come with a vacuum of successful experiences at healing. We have no shortage of health issues to heal from. But we have seen little healing from what information we get from sharing in this forum.

Most of us here face their healing journey with the path laid out by modern pharma without realizing that path leads to a dead end. Relying on single compounds as a magic bullet is one example.

Healing is like cooking. You can't just mix a few ingredients together and heat and serve a nice dish. There is a process that makes a dish good, just as you need a process for healing to really happen.

Instead, we can be likened to a bunch of groupies flocking to listen to a rock star. And all the rockstar does is to tell us take this take that. In this sense, there is really not much of a difference to seeing a regular doctor where all he does is dish out a prescription that also says take this and take that.

[Mossy]

@LucH There is a lot to absorb here. I scanned through your posts attempting to glean if supplemental calcium should be dealt with in the same way as dietary calcium, with regard to balancing calcium with oxalates and supplemental magnesium. Until I dig further to confirm otherwise, at first glance it seems supplemental calcium would not warrant the same oxalate concerns.

You may find this study interesting: Calcium and Vitamin D Supplementation and Their Association with Kidney Stone Disease: A Narrative Review

[LucH]

@Insomniac said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

Is there any reason to avoid oxalates if it's eaten along with lots of calcium and sulfur to neutralize the oxalate?

Short answer:
I won’t bother much if you drink milk and your daily intake for calcium turns around 800 mg Ca.
Why? Your ratio Ca / Ox is higher than 1/3 (1/3 Ca is sufficient).

Context:
You consume between 150 – 200 mg oxalate as most people, although our liver can only manage 50 mg oxalate a day. The rest of the oxalate will theoretically be captured by the Ca and form a soap which will be excreted via the stools.
But then you’re supposed to manage well how to avoid lithiasis.
Taking some sulfur (MSM = 34 % sulfur element) is interesting when detoxifying. Or you eat some vegetables of the alliaceae family (mind getting enough selenium and iodine, Se before / first if you thyroid is borderline).

You haven’t yet got any CaOx but you manage well when eating spinach or rhubarb. You don’t eat a lot of almond, except if you limit it to 30 gr / 1 oz. (23x), not every day and if possible sprouted (without the brown husk)
Even if you don’t perceive it, you weaken the tubules of the kidneys and the walls of the intestines with CaOx.
So, nothing to worry about if you digest well, you don’t bloat, have no gas and flatulence. Once every 3 months is not problematic. Question of frequency.
But personally, I would act differently, not waiting for the problems to arise.

Concrete example (my case report):

• I’ve had one CaOx in my urine 5 years ago.
• I’ve dealt with suspicion of SIBO/SIFO last year. Under control (histamine, bloating and flatulence).
  When I eat potato puree (mashed), with a small onion, frozen spinach – or broccoli flowers – and one egg + butter, I take the following supplement if spinach (> 600 mg Ox)
• Potassium citrate 1.3 g x 2 doses.
  => It makes a smooth salt, 100 x less solid than calcium oxalate. So less aggressive since the salt has no sharp edges.
• But if I hadn’t eaten dairies I would have handled it in a different way to avoid exciting PTH.
  Last evening, I saw my Cronometer log at 270 mg Ca, with a weak intake of magnesium, and a sufficient ratio Na / K. Not enough vegetables and fruits. So I decided to prevent night cramps …
  Explanation:
  Parathyroid hormone (PTH) stimulates bone resorption by acting directly on osteoblasts cells.
  PTH is going to increase calcium levels in blood by increasing osteoclastic activity. Principle of opposites. When the blood calcium level is too low, the body responds by secreting more PTH. This causes the calcium level in the blood to rise by breakdown of bones.
  TSH should be kept between 0.5 and 2.5. Not 5.
  Link: Bone remodeling by osteoclast when TSH is activated.
  => Bone remodeling and modeling. Video 4’
  https://youtu.be/0dV1Bwe2v6c
  Wikipedia:
  Bone resorption is resorption of bone tissue, that is, the process by which osteoclasts break down the tissue in bones and release the minerals, resulting in a transfer of calcium from bone tissue to the blood. => Ca is needed to assure the right pH. balance in blood, when the right acid-based balance is not optimal (between 7.35 and 7.45, I think).

*) What did I do?
1 hour before bedtime (more convenient for me)

• 100 ml mineral water (low mineralized)
• 1 big caps calcium citrate 1000 mg (330 mg Ca element) (Kal brand). Need some coconut oil to swallow it (otherwise difficult). (1)
• 2 doses of potassium citrate (1.3 g x 2) (21 % K by weight)
• 1 dose Magnesium bisglycinate (2.5g) (14.1 % Mg by weight)
• 1 speculoos (snack 6.7 g). Not necessary but easier to make supplements move downwards.

Source and References

1. Am J Ther. 1999 Nov DOI: 10.1097/00045391-199911000-00005
   Results: Calcium absorption from calcium citrate was consistently significantly higher than that from calcium carbonate by 20.0% in the whole set, by 24.0% in Category A, by 27.2% on an empty stomach, and by 21.6% with meals.
   Conclusion: Calcium citrate is better absorbed than calcium carbonate by approximately 22% to 27%, either on an empty stomach or co-administered with meals.
   Note1: it’s better to absorb small doses 200-250 mg Ca element if you can.
   Optimal vitamin D levels are necessary to increase the efficiency of calcium absorption. No supplement Ca if no K2 hasn’t been taken, if you don’t want Ca to deposit in joints (arthrosis) or in arteries (clot).
   If you’re at risk of AVC, don’t take high dose calcium at the same time as vitamin D3. We found a higher risk, we do not explain how.
   NIH 2019 doi: 10.14797/mdcj-15-3-207

*) Useful info (in French, translator needed)
Calcium : Quelle supplémentation ? – Test Calcium Citrate
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1935-optimiser-l-assimilation-du-calcium-en-supplement#27328
Excerpt:
Calcium absorption from all sources was estimated to be about 30 %.
Results showed that calcium absorption from calcium citrate malate as tablets was significantly higher in these adolescents (p< 0.03) compared to calcium absorption from CaCO3 (calcium carbonate).
The average absorption from CaCO3 was approximately 27% (13 to 40%), whereas that from calcium citrate malate was approximately 36% (27 to 53%). The average difference in absorption was approximately 10% between these two sources of calcium.
https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2007.612
Note: Calcium bisglycinate has a rather better absorption rate but it’s not appropriate if you try to manage histamine level. Hydroxyproline from collagen or bone broth is not advised. A high level of glycine is not adviced too.
DOI : 10.1016/0016-5085(91)90024-f
Test des acides biliaires liés à la glycine et / ou la taurine.
Pour une concentration donnée, les acides biliaires non conjugués et les acides biliaires conjugués à la glycine induisaient une libération d’histamine plus importante que les acides biliaires conjugués à la taurine. L’acide cholique et ses conjugués ont provoqué une libération d'histamine bien moindre ou nulle.
NB : Question de fréquence et de proportion de glycine ingérée.

[LucH]

@yerrag

Yerrag says
I'm just glad I never have to deal with oxalate issues. I don't even think I've heard of anyone in my circles in the Philippines ever mentioning a problem with oxalates. Then again, it may be that it exists and that our doctors and healers here are just unaware of it.
=> The estimated known incidence of hyperoxaluria is between 1-2/10 000 000 per year with no differences between sexes. There are higher rates reported in isolated populations, especially in the Middle East and North Africa.
Note: I haven’t heard HAS reported the incidence of these problems. Underestimated.
HAS = Haute autorité de santé / High authority for health.

(…)
It's a nice effort but a lot of value that I expect to get from health forums is the pooling of successful experiences in fixing a health problem common to many in the hope of being able to start with a hypothesis of how a health issue is cured and end with the hypothesis being validated. This has not been happening at all.
=> I agree that waiting for testimony from experienced case reports would be the optimal choice. But the forum won’t be very animated, supposing the individuals could clearly explained the etiology and how they cured. When you feel foggy, having problems to concentrate and discern the accessory from the essential is difficult. Then you should still be able to report facts, clarifying the context, without digressions on latterly symptoms. Might as well dream, most of the time.

(…)
While I applaud your earnest efforts to aggregate information, I wish there are more among us that don't just come to the forum to learn something only, but to share something of value that comes from good research, and thinking and connecting the dots, and applying this synthesis into their own context, and sharing true successes in healing themselves.
=> Yes, it would be fine.
Would you say the same from CM or RP when talking about sth they see / learn / analyze? No, of course. They often report on what they have experienced or seen.
Do you think there are many experts who spend time on the internet answering questions following a published article or a report on the consultations? Shortly after yes. And afterwards? They do exist but they are only known and accessible by a minority.

(…)
Most of us here face their healing journey with the path laid out by modern pharma without realizing that path leads to a dead end. Relying on single compounds as a magic bullet is one example.
Healing is like cooking. You can't just mix a few ingredients together and heat and serve a nice dish. There is a process that makes a dish good, just as you need a process for healing to really happen.
Instead, we can be likened to a bunch of groupies flocking to listen to a rock star. And all the rockstar does is to tell us take this take that. In this sense, there is really not much of a difference to seeing a regular doctor where all he does is dish out a prescription that also says take this and take that.
=> I understand your deception.
Note: Knowing how to listen is already valuable. Discerning or trying to circumscribe a problem with a view to directing you to a health practitioner if appropriate would be welcome.
Should we throw the baby out with the bathwater because the situation is not optimal? No, of course, provided there are safeguards. That’s another problem.
Please, do not answer, except if you don’t agree or see a problem with the initial post about how to manage to avoid hyperoxaluria. Thanks for comprehension.

[yerrag]

@LucH

A reply of word salad.

At RPF, you made little sense.

At bioenergetic, same same, but with more words courtesy of your heavy use of AI.

In both forums, it seems you know very little of Ray Peat and hardly mention him or principles of bioenergetics.

Have you shared any personal experience in healing that comes from experience? As opposed to lifting it from your research?

[LucH]

@Mossy

I have just read the randomized study on the concomitant taking of Ca and Vit D. you posted. Interesting. Thanks.
I’ll come back soon to give a report because there are biases. The author recognizes that there are “gaps” in certain studies (some parameters being not mentioned or forgotten) but he draws conclusions, even though it is well known that a higher dosage Ca should not be taken above 1000/1200 mg. In addition, the authors did not take into account all the activation factors (vitamin K2) or factors that soften/temper the effects of high dose Vit D (thanks to vitamin A, retinol).

But as you could read it, from one influent and insightful (?) forumer, the latter attributes me a copycat reasoning (IA) and a lack of knowledge of RP literature. I agree to concede to him that he has a better grasp / understanding of the “philosophy” of RP’s writings. My knowledge is only partial. And I maintain a certain independence. Too long to explain why here. And I don't really want to argue (sterile and unpleasant).
By the way, my forum has been existing for more than 10 years, and AI is only available from 2 years, less here in Europe.

No hard feelings, but the one_whose_name _I _won't _mention has just dropped in my esteem. What a pity! But hey, I can admit that we all have bad days, except that it's not his first time, when he has someone in his sights.
NB: I intended first to analyze the whole study but I won't do it now. Guess why ...

[Mossy]

@LucH said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

@Mossy

I have just read the randomized study on the concomitant taking of Ca and Vit D. you posted. Interesting. Thanks.
I’ll come back soon to give a report because there are biases. The author recognizes that there are “gaps” in certain studies (some parameters being not mentioned or forgotten) but he draws conclusions, even though it is well known that a higher dosage Ca should not be taken above 1000/1200 mg. In addition, the authors did not take into account all the activation factors (vitamin K2) or factors that soften/temper the effects of high dose Vit D (thanks to vitamin A, retinol).

But as you could read it, from one influent and insightful (?) forumer, the latter attributes me a copycat reasoning (IA) and a lack of knowledge of RP literature. I agree to concede to him that he has a better grasp / understanding of the “philosophy” of RP’s writings. My knowledge is only partial. And I maintain a certain independence. Too long to explain why here. And I don't really want to argue (sterile and unpleasant).
By the way, my forum has been existing for more than 10 years, and AI is only available from 2 years, less here in Europe.

No hard feelings, but the one_whose_name _I _won't _mention has just dropped in my esteem. What a pity! But hey, I can admit that we all have bad days, except that it's not his first time, when he has someone in his sights.
NB: I intended first to analyze the whole study but I won't do it now. Guess why ...

It's very hard to understand the workings of the body in general, let alone the unique state each of us are in, and what it would take to truly help and rejuvenate us to a better state, one that would objectively take us over the threshold from subpar to flourishing. So, I keep an open mind — and as you know by now, ask a lot of questions. For those of us who are not doctors or scientists, we wing it and go with the anecdotal experiences of ourselves and others, as well as doing our due diligence in research and gaining more expert knowledge. So, I don't expect all that I read on forums will be the last word and the best advice. But hopefully at some point our understanding will grow and our hunches and educated guesses will lead to more reliable and fruitful results.

[yerrag]

@LucH

Thanks for treating me like a god, where you can't call me by my name. Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but I'll do the tango with you as you sashay with in our tete a tete.

Very likely I could be wrong seeing you develop into a much better poster this year in this new forum, as compared to your RPF self. Perhaps I'm the only one to take notice. As you are getting replies noted with thankfulness for answers that are truly helpful. I would be lying if I didn't say you were a different person in your stint at RPF, where you were incoherent. You are now more armed with citations whereas you were more like me in RPF in lacking references. As my weakness is in citing research citations given it slows me down.

Yet I suspect you use AI in doing your research, which makes you appear more thorough with lists, but the tradeoff is it has the hallmark weakness of AI where it lacks the ability to assign weight to what is more important and relevant. And this becomes a liability when it comes to finding the one answer needed to solve a problem posed.

If I were a poster in search of an answer, I would have difficulty finding the piece de resistance when I am given a buffet instead of the maitre d'hotel suggesting to me the specialty dish a restaurant is known for.

And that is my pet peeve with you. You are like a maitre d' that hasn't had a taste of the dishes asked recommending a dish.

But you try your best but you're like an author that writes from vicarious experiences instead of having undergone the true discovery and emotions and thrill of having lived through an actual experience with it's peaks and valleys.

It doesn't matter if you've had 10 years of running another health forum. One look at Charlie and you know that it means little.

It's alright if the forum isn't acculturated to stick with everything Ray Peat and bioenergetics, but it's still necessary to have the identity that starts and ends with the idea that all diseases are metabolic in origin. It's an idea that for beginners would seem fantastic, but as one sticks long enough to see the successes he himself would experience in improving his health, he would see the wisdom I'm that idea. Even in a world seemingly bombarded with toxins and infections and trauma physical and psychological.

If one is convinced of that foundational thought, one would approach bioenergetics like Ray approached it, seeking that thread of coherence to put disparate concepts in alignment and in a unity that allows us to connect dots. In so doing, we see what needs to be done in ourselves to bring our health to where we no longer are fixing endless petty small fires that look insurmountable in and of themselves, but are actually developing ourselves to a better organism and a better species.

It would be nice if your contributions could bring us closer to coherence with Ray's overarching mission as lived by him, rather than make us more perplexed in facing the multitudes of lies and half-truths set up to keep us helpless. If I have to be direct, stop with needlessly helter skelter pulling up research that bears little earnestness in advancing truth to our less discerning minds.

[Insomniac]

@LucH I watched Sally Norton speak. She wrote a book on oxalates. I don't think she talked about food pairing or adding minerals, just oxalate avoidance.

It's good to have another take on the topic. I've started eating cheese with high oxalate foods.

Ty

[LucH]

@Insomniac said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

It's good to have another take on the topic. I've started eating cheese with high oxalate foods.

That's the right attitude. However, people who don't like Greek yoghurt, white cheese or Gouda (Vit K2 for the latter), eating round 800 mg Ca the day long is still adequate (from food), according to one study I read (=> 40 40 720 mg Ca). Not optimal but OK. The study did not find a problem, but it was over a fairly short period, I think. People not at risk.

To be reminded: broccoli and oat are rich in Ca. Just to vary.
When I eat spinach with mashed potato, I add 1.5 tsp raw butter and 1 tbp coconut oil and one egg yolk or the full egg.
And as I am careful (I've got one CaOx 5 years ago) (I sometimes speak from experience, without expressly specifying it) I care for it through my day log. I correct it with the evening meal or 1 hour before bedtime with a shake, if necessary.

[LucH]

@Mossy said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

I keep an open mind — and as you know by now, ask a lot of questions.

I've be discussing the link you gave there:
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2064-why-the-odd-with-calcium-recommendation#29866
Why weird recommendations about calcium supplement?
Introduction
I had an interesting discussion with Mossy on Bioenergetics Forum about oxalates problems.
“Clearing up the confusion about oxalate lists”
https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/3165/clearing-up-the-confusion-about-oxalate-lists/15
But as I'm not in the best position there to speak freely, I decided to post here, to better control the deviations and digressions.

[Mossy]

@LucH said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

@Mossy said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

I keep an open mind — and as you know by now, ask a lot of questions.

I've be discussing the link you gave there:
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2064-why-the-odd-with-calcium-recommendation#29866
Why weird recommendations about calcium supplement?
Introduction
I had an interesting discussion with Mossy on Bioenergetics Forum about oxalates problems.
“Clearing up the confusion about oxalate lists”
https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/3165/clearing-up-the-confusion-about-oxalate-lists/15
But as I'm not in the best position there to speak freely, I decided to post here, to better control the deviations and digressions.

I will take a look as time allows. Thank you.

[yerrag]

@Mossy

I have a word of caution about such aggregation of research. Knowing the source of recommendations would be very helpful. Not knowing but relying on their word on account of the putative wisdom and pedigree of such research based on titles is risky business, distracting you from finding an actual solution.

One of the doctors cited there, for example, is Carolyn Dean, whose advice to avoid or minimize calcium intake is really ignorant. Without any qualification, her low calcium dosage recommendation leads people to become osteoporotic. She says high calcium leads to calcification. We know she is half right only at best. Because high calcium intake leads to calcification only for the hypothyroid peeps. She lacks understanding of this.

[Mossy]

@yerrag Hi Yerrag,

I appreciate your concern, and I think to a large degree you're justified in voicing it. For words simply published on the wild west of the internet shouldn't just be swallowed blind. Given my history of poor health and many years of trial and error with supplements, with about a 1% success rate — no matter who the advice comes from — I remain fairly open to various positions. If something is too outlandish it will usually stick out to me, and I do attempt to use Peat as a measuring rod against what I read. Though, sometimes I will stray from that where it might make sense to do so. I welcome your caution and comments, and will take them to heart as I venture forward in my healing quest.

[Corngold]

@yerrag said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

If one is convinced of that foundational thought, one would approach bioenergetics like Ray approached it, seeking that thread of coherence to put disparate concepts in alignment and in a unity that allows us to connect dots. In so doing, we see what needs to be done in ourselves to bring our health to where we no longer are fixing endless petty small fires that look insurmountable in and of themselves, but are actually developing ourselves to a better organism and a better species.

This is a neat thread. I've been wondering about oxalates and oxalic acid for a while. It started when I was reading Peat 1-2 years ago and tried eating a salad. The salad made my stomach hurt for the night and some the following day. Romaine lettuce and/or spinach or other greens I think. I tried it again a few other times, and each time I tried a salad it was really upsetting my stomach. It's funny how salads are worshipped as a health food, but I don't remember reading anything about salad/greens in Peat's writings except for some comments about phytoestrogens and probably oxalates or sulfurs in cruciferous veggies.

If other people can eat it, great. But I'm convinced there's something going on with oxalic acid/oxalates in fresh greens like these. Of course it could be pesticides and other things given industrialized agriculture, but I'm not sure. Most fruit I eat settles well.

On the theme of "coherence" that's what I find interesting. Common wisdom in these times is leading people astray and into darkness as a feature, not a bug, of institutional authoritarianism... anyways, the idea being something like "greens are a super food and good for you." It's the same logic guiding "seed oils are good and heart-healthy." "Nuts have omega-3s and these protect your brain."

If salads are good for one person, fine, but it's a fact for me that almost every "health" food I tried eating regularly left me cold, tired, irritated, etc. I guess it's also a feature of the Peatarian opposition that most of us probably seem like culinary pariahs to those unaware of the cultural dietary inversions going on.
I see the real insanity when so-called experts criticize fruit as "sugar" or "empty carbs." Morons! Sure, don't be a fruitarian, but imagine the vitality awaiting people who started replacing pufa-slop with grapes, apples, dates, oranges, and good fruit. It's unnerving to see the simple solutions don't work I think partly because an addict doesn't simply quit heroin because sobriety is better.

I know that PUFA / SAD foods are addictive as most processed food is designed to be addictive. Is there anything published on pufa withdrawal, or pufa-deprivation causing stress?