Dandruff or scalp irritation? Try BLOO.
@dht Hans Amato, who is probably PUFA depleted too, said he did a 600mg of Test E and 600mg of Mast E, and felt nothing.
I think estradiol is responsible for a lot of the effects of testosterone, and since estradiol is controlled by PUFA, I think I can tolerate it without any excess dopamine and serotonin for example. Just my thoughts.
@alfredoolivas said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
However, if you do not turn testosterone into estrogen, it is a very stabilising, anti-cortisol and anti-estrogenic substance, that's effects are barely noticeable.
"Testosterone by itself is more of a quiet foundation than a raging storm. It keeps things steady, blunts stress, and subtly reinforces resilience without making a scene. It’s like having a solid, well-built engine—efficient, reliable, and not overly flashy unless you start tinkering with the fuel mix (estrogen)."
- The whole cell is a receptor and the effects of a substance depend on the state of the cell - that is why we all have different reactions to different substances, and as your cells change due to depleting PUFA for example, you will develop different reactions to different supplements
@dht This was kind of my explanation, probably PUFA depletion and thyroid and test acting as an AI
@dht fair enough. My view is there exists purity tests for steroids but not DNP, and it’s been tested by the community and apparently there’s magnetic metal contamination such as iron, but no heavy metal contamination. I found a test for a trenbolone product, and per 100mg, it tested positive for mercury, but 100mg would give as much mercury as found in a bite of sardines or something. Just my cope haha, I’m okay with it.
@sushi_is_cringe Larping? As a famous mexican singer Alfredo Olivas? I clearly have mentioned that I live in the EU, I just set my username & profile picture as one of my favourite artists.
@sushi_is_cringe said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
@alfredoolivas dude why tf are you on ozempic? am I reading this right? in the pic you sent to me you're literally shredded. you were literally posting cool stuff about how pro metabolism makes you empathetic with your college m8s last year, what has happened since then? and now on here you are larping as Mexican or something. dude what is going on
I have sent that picture to a few people when it came up in conversation. All those people came to me asking for advice.
I spent lots of time trying to help all of those people (no the help did not consist of me recommending them supplements, like this list. I wasn't even using GLP-1).
You were one of them, asking for advice, and this is how you repay me? I hope my advice helped, that's the whole reason I spend time on this forum and modding the subreddit.
@samson Can you give me an example of anyone apart from Peat, Roddy, Haidut or @Kvirion challenging "receptor theory of the cell"?
I am being genuine, apart from a single Reddit post from last year, and Haidut's explanation (back in the day), I have NEVER seen a user talk about a diet, substance or anything in a way that challenges "the receptor theory of the cell". @Kvirion has been the first to even mention this in over a year, at least in my experience.
Literally 20 posts have been made here with the words "receptor theory" in it.... it is therefore extremely rich for me to be called out by others for having a reductionist viewpoint, when litterally everyone is making the same mistake.
(I am not criticising these comments, rather the principles that you follow are hypocritical)
@alfredoolivas It is also what is stopping me from taking the other GLP-1 receptor agonists - the others agonise the GIP-1 and Glucagon receptor. If I am ever to express interest in these drugs, I need to understand where GIP-1 and glucagon fits in the picture of physiology, metabolism and stress, and how it relates to both energy and structure.
Infact. That is why I have never posted studies, on random molecules, supplements or drugs, that I have found. I want to know how their targets fit into this almost spiritual idea of health.
@Kvirion Okay fair enough, that is a very good viewpoint, that I am actually a holder of.
It is what made me decide to take GLP-1 Agonists. Thousands of drugs and diets show the same benefits as semaglutide, but what made me choose semaglutide, is that I believe GLP-1 hormone fits into physiology, metabolism and stress, in a manner that aligns that with energy and structure.
Of course, writing about where the GLP-1 hormone fits into physiology, metabolism and stress, will take a whole thread to explain.
But lets not pretend that the other participants of this thread held this viewpoint towards any of the subjects more than me. Infact, this viewpoint towards health is extremely rare ANYWHERE on this forum, the other forum or Reddit. The fact that I am called out, out of the the thousands of other people is insane.
@Kvirion
We are talking about heart rates in response to thyroid medication… it doesn’t matter who’s holistic and who “believes in scientism”, we are taking about an extremely basic quantitative measurement, that anyone can test, and see how it changes to a medication. I never denied his opinion - I only said that my experience is common.
It’s actually quite funny: I make dozens of posts, about studies, proving and explaining the pro-metabolic theory of health, and I probably have shared close to 100 more studies in Reddit comment sections, and in DMs. These studies are rodent, cell and human studies.
And there are lots of other valuable researchers that share these studies too, and do the exact same thing. No one has EVER called me or these other researchers, followers of scientism.
But as soon as I speak positively about my response to semaglutide and say my heart rate doesn’t change on thyroid, whilst showing studies supporting this idea that this doesn’t happen to everyone, I get called a member of scientism.
There were 7 medications on this list, that I recommended SOLEY based off of personal experience. 7. None are patented. I clearly said the others had drawbacks that I had experienced, and I don’t recommend them.
Pure scientism huh?
@Metabolist Yes I have moderated the subreddit for a year have and never seen someone so Authoritarian as you.
You: "Don't do semaglutide, even though you clearly stated only experience positive effects without any negatives, do T3 and testosterone!"
Me :"I have tried them, and had lack of results for weight loss (even though I have had clearly put them in S and A tier, as I had amazing results with them otherwise)."
You: "You aren't taking high enough dose or you are taking the wrong brand"
Me: "I have tried 4 different brands and doses up to 300mcg."
You: "Impossible! Your heart rate must be through the roof! Based on this SINGLE indicator (heart rate) I diagnose you THYROID RESISTANT"
Me:"My heart rate (90 - 100bpm), already high with or without thyroid, doesn't rise. Actually this is quite common, here is a meta analysis of 21 studies that showed this is common, even with high doses. Furthermore, here are a handful of individual studies that show this. (I don't state anywhere that it is not possible or common for heart rate to rise with thyroid)”.
You: "You don’t believe that the thyroid increases heart rate? You don’t believe in thyroiditis or any other side effects of thyroid issues? You don’t believe that tachycardia, palpitations, jitters, and nervousness are among the most prominent effects? Other symptoms include hypertension, angina, muscle weakness, insomnia, diarrhea, extremely high SHBG, and sweating.
You are still thyroid resistant, despite you telling me that thyroid works really well for you! Try Cynomel! Get NDT from an endocronoligist"
I have barely said your opinion is invalid, and have simply shared my own experience, opinion and evidence.
What do you do ? Start diagnosing me with conditions, accuse me of believing something that I never stated and have given me advice that I have already tried - but I am always doing something wrong, I am the issue, you give me more advice.
@Hando-Jin thanks for sharing.
Thyroid doesn’t stimulate appetite for me and it might even lower appetite for me, if anything. But not significantly. I already am taking 50mg of exemestane a day, I like it.
Thyroid increases GLP-1, which is why maybe it lowers appetite.
"Heart rate decreased significantly after T3 infusion (63, 60–66 vs. 69, 60–76 beats per minute"
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/93/4/1351/2826632
"Triiodothyronine in patients with advanced heart failure. An intravenous bolus dose of triiodothyronine, with or without a 6- to 12-hour infusion (cumulative dose 0. 1 5 to 2.7 microg/kg...There was no significant change in heart rate or metabolic rate and there was minimal increase in core temperature"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9485134/
"Cardiac function as measured by LVEF, end-diastolic and end-systolic volumes and cardiac output did not change during T3-treatment and neither did the neurohormonal profile. There were no side-effects in terms of cardiac arrhythmias and no change in resting heart rate."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cen.12648
@samson said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
@alfredoolivas you are clearly heavily indoctrinated into the scientism of the medical industry,
Because I hold a single controversial opinion about a substance, I am indoctrinated?
In vivo and the gay science should be mandatory reading for this forum lol
So people should have to read selectively chosen science, to be a part of this forum, and anyone that goes against the grain a single time is medically indoctrinated?
Instead of continuing our conversation about the interesting selection of studies you gave me, you come out with this authoritarian comment
@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
@alfredoolivas So you lack the willpower and discipline to overcome your hunger during a cut and therefore need to take a novel big pharma drug? Got it.
Yeah? I am not trying to be stressed during my weight loss and during the time I try to maintain my weight loss?
The result is - I look great - feel great - and have no side effects. All for 45 euros a month. But maybe I should buy heavy metal laden DNP...
@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
You mean your experience with a weak or fake product? Try it again with cynomel if you dare. One study using metabolically-deranged mega fatties does not concretely
I gave you 2 studies and a meta-analysis, that share my experience?
I respond really well to thyroid, I get very good effects from thyroid such as dopmanigeric effects and improved energy. Hence why it is in S tier.
I am not taking in fake products or a "non responder" to thyroid, I just don't get the increase in heart beat.... which is pretty normal according to the 2 studies and the meta-analysis I showed you.
@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
Try it again with cynomel if you dare.
I have, and received the same results.... let me guess... the cynomel got damaged on the way to europe?
@alfredoolivas "Liraglutide exerted anti-catabolic activity by significantly decreasing the activities of metalloproteinases and aggrecanases"
"Liraglutide treatment decreases the release and gene expression of OA inflammatory and catabolic markers and stimulates anabolic markers gene expression"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35091584/
"Liraglutide, a glucagon-like peptide-1 receptor agonist, inhibits bone loss in an animal model of osteoporosis with or without diabetes."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38868747/
"Liraglutide increases bone formation and inhibits bone resorption in rats with glucocorticoid-induced osteoporosis"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30955181/
@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
. T3 absolutely will ramp up fat loss, beyond just the maintenance of the normal metabolic rate in a deficit, as long as you don't out eat the metabolic boost. I've seen it work first hand in others. Done right, it's a gradual thing but so is any lasting weight loss. Muscle loss isn't really a concern with proper diet and training so long as you aren't seriously overdosing.
Obviously, but it won't help with controlling appetite which is what I struggle with. And it it will help, but it won't be the main factor that is making you lose weight.
@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
. Muscle loss isn't really a concern with proper diet and training so long as you aren't seriously overdosing.
So you acknowledge there is nuance, with studies that show a weight loss drug causes muscle loss, but when it comes to Ozempic, that same logic goes out the window.
"Subjects treated with T3, 150 µg/day, showed a rise in oxygen uptake and the catabolism of fat and protein. Approximately 75% of the extra oxygen consumed could be accounted for by catabolism of fat. Yet breakdown of lean body mass produced nearly 80% of the weight loss."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523333264#:~:text=Subjects treated with T3,80%25 of the weight loss.
@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
.If you took 300mcg for a few days without your heart beating out of your chest and without severe jitters then you either have really weak product or some sort of thyroid hormone resistance. 300mcg is reckless and advise anyone reading this not to try it.
Not in my experience, and clinically this has not been shown.
"On an outpatient basis, 12 grossly obese patients were treated in a double-blind, randomized trial with either 225 µg triiodothyronine or with identically appearing placebo tablets for 1 month followed by a 2nd month of the opposite therapy. During the period on T3, there was an average rise of six beats/min in heart rate and a significant loss of weight. "
"Consistent effects of T(3) or T(4) on weight loss, protein breakdown, metabolic rate, and heart rate could not be established. In euthyroid cardiac patients, T(3) decreased TSH and free T(4) levels, without consistent effects of T(3) or T(4) on heart rate, cardiac output, or systemic vascular resistance. "
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19737920/
"Results: No change in sympathetic and metabolic BAT activity, energy expenditure, or BMI was seen during T3 treatment despite the expected changes in thyroid hormone plasma concentrations."
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/jpem-2014-0337/html?lang=en&srsltid=AfmBOorTshJkgAshNN78o3j1SrDFuHopj7gSU5W3tzAsEl7EhJDKsjxQ
@Kvirion Absolutely, not for everyone.
@metabolicmilk 100-120mcgs of T3, split into 16 mcg doses every hour and a half. My favourite is Tironene - I do really well on it, it's cheap and IdeaLabs ships the same day you order, they have DHL express delivery, meaning it can get delivered to Europe in less than 2 days, and it passes customs every time, very very quickly. A zero-stress expereience with IdeaLabs and their product, I love it.
@anib 0.25mg twice a week.
I haven't got a good answer. Pramixepole seems to have some opposite effects than the ergot derivatives. Pramixepole encourages fat gain for example, whereas cabergoline and bromocriptine promote it, pramixepole is more asssociated with compulsive dissorders etc, I just don't trust Pramixepole, it is a lot stronger than cabergoline, I read it is stronger than dopamine by 100%+, whereas cabergoline is around 70% as strong as dopamine. Seems very artificial. Just my intuition really, no good reason.
@Metabolist They don't, studies have shown healthy men taking testosterone, don't get any change in metabolic rate, and thyroid for barely to change the metabolic rate and weight loss. On that topic, thyroid has shown to be very catabolic in humans but people love to keep quiet about that one here.
I have tried different brands of thyroid, taken up to 300mcg a day, and have not lost weight. Same goes for testosterone. I am on bodybuilder forums, and thyroid is only useful when yourbody stops burning fat during a calorie deficit, and testosterone isn't even talked about for a fat loss agent, even though it has fat loss related benefits like muscle preservation.
@Peatful Bone loss and excess catabolism can all be explained by much rapid and sustained weight loss.... if you lose more weight and your weight loss doesn't plateau you will lose more muscle. In interventional animal studies, where they simply weren't studying correlations and observations, GLP 1 agonists have been shown to be anti-catabolic to both bones and muscles.
I also saw another study that said the opposite about GLP 1 agonists effect on mental health.
But fair enough for sharing these studies. I personally have not experienced this, and have got even more stronger in the gym on semaglutide, but these are fair talking points.