Posts made by gentlepotato

@Sippy
Short answer: Yes, i think it can be helpful.

Longer musing: I think people who are neurodivergent and already have issues with neurotransmitters are at higher risk for trouble with the Itaconate shunt, because it causes the GABA shunt, which leads to neurotransmitters being used for ATP instead of what they're supposed to be used for.

There's also a strange phenomenon with autism where people have seen symptoms disappear when they have a fever. If symptoms disappear when the Itaconate shunt is not actived (the fever may indicate the adaptive immune system is activated), maybe debilitating autism is "just" another manifestation (one of many) of the Itaconate shunt (the innate immune system not letting the adaptive immune system do it's job).

(Edit: Actually not sure that a fever may indicate the adaptive immune system is activated; I just very rarely have a fever since my Itaconate shunt issues started - and on the rare occasion I have a fever I've experienced certain symptoms get better. Here's an article about the phenomenon: https://news.mit.edu/2024/understanding-why-autism-symptoms-sometimes-improve-amid-fever-0523)

Hope they can find some relief, it sounds challenging.

@sharko I don't think anyone is hurt, but we're at least a few people voicing that the vibe isn't helpful or okay. There's a difference between challenging someone's hypothesis, and judging what logic they're allowed to follow, and what is serious and not serious. I made my point to say you come across as judgemental; some contemplation about how you can communicate differently might be necessary if you want to come across in a different way.

@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

And, to say that for 20 years you did everything according to Ray Peat and nothing worked the way this protocol works, is a bit of an understatement, when in practice you simply didn't study the science he revealed to us in enough depth.

This, to me, is very unnecessary and an example of some shit communication. It's a judgemental take, that lacks compassion and humility. It also lacks the acknowledgement that even if we study the science "in enough depth" that does not mean it will work for us.

Something that isn't talked about enough in the RP world is why so many women don't get better following these principles. I'm gonna guess you're a male? And if not, maybe you've been luckier than others, because as I've mentioned before I see so many women in RP world doing everything you can expect, and understand the RP approach very well, and still not get better. The last thing we need is people telling us stuff like your quote above.

@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

I saw your messages and the truth is that they made me feel that my message was not selective enough, but in my opinion these are the main messages that linked Ray's research to the story seriously.

In any case, I mainly referred to the preoccupation with asking the doctor's opinion and waiting for new "scientific" knowledge that he will publish, as if looking to replace a deep understanding of how the organism works, with a beautiful story that does not require much mental effort.

There is nothing new under the sun. As I wrote in the previous message, 100 years ago they already knew that the wasting disease could be treated with rice and he distilled it into glucose, but he invented unscientific theories that people are waiting to hear about, instead of understanding that the whole story here is a more accurate distillation of fuel that does not have to go through obstacles on the way and can work in a way Similar with white rice in most cases, like 100 years ago.

Today, apparently, glucose has a greater advantage than rice compared to the past, because there were no intestinal and other problems in the past like there are today.

And yet, this is only a small part of the complete puzzle of the metabolism.

Sure, everyone is this thread knows it's just a small part of the complete puzzle.

Anyone exploring or curious about exploring glucose are very welcome to hypothesize, share and ask questions; but if you are not and you're just here to lecture us on how to go about our explorations, and being selective about who you think are "seriously linking" glucose to RP, I'm for one not interested in your take.

Honestly comes across as weird to be so opinionated about it when you're not exploring glucose that you show up in this thread. I appreciate people sharing their explorations and hypothesis' even when they're different from mine, and when something doesn't resonate I just scroll past. I recommend you try it.

@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

It seems that you are mainly relying here on beautiful stories of a doctor who has no idea how the body works and mostly he was a little lucky to discover the wonders of sugar.

You went too far with the theories in my opinion.

I think it is nothing more than the difference between the combination with fructose can burden the liver and sucrose which is not sure what its breakdown can be in everyone's intestine.

Instead of trying to complete the logic of Ray Peat's research, you are dealing with a doctor who does not understand anything and looking for answers in irrelevant places.

Most of the answers to all your problems already exist in Ray Peat's research

You searched for a miracle cure and found yourself exerting yourself to the same extent as you would if you had invested in understanding bioenergetics in depth.

Experimenting and collecting evidence, cases and reactions is extremely important, but I would recommend continuing to try to build the logic according to the bioenergetic approach and not try to reinvent the wheel. It won't go well for sure...

Who are you addressing here? And have you read the entire thread? It's full of experimenting and collecting evidence, and building logic.

To me what you're saying comes across as unnecessarily rude. If you don't have an interest in glucose there are plenty other bioenergetic spaces where you can go play, where no one is talking about glucose.

Has anyone read the new book? Wondering what it's about.

@CrumblingCookie thanks for sharing your thoughts and findings!

I may have some more thoughts about this, but I am wondering what do you mean by "the glucose entering the brain"? I know that's something Dr. Stephens talk about, but what does that actually mean? Where in the brain? What in the brain is not having enough glucose, and is now getting enough glucose?

@Ecstatic_Hamster said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

What is PM and ME dieting? Thanks

I think you're referring to what I wrote? PM is pro metabolic, and ME is my diagnosis, often called ME/CFS internationally, but it's often just called ME in my country so I forgot to add the /CFS.

@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

@gentlepotato Yes, temp, pulse, oxygen saturation, BP have all improved on glucose. I think for some of us healing just isn't going to feel great.

Definitely, not necessarily something that feels great, and the tricky thing really is to decipher what is just a part of healing and what are signals from the body that we need to tweak something. We might not even find the answers, but maybe sharing along the way at least will make it easier for those who try this after us.

@Ecstatic_Hamster said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

@gentlepotato so would you say you feel better. Is libido better. Is sleeping better. Is brain fog better. Thank you for your helpful account.

I would say it's intense in a different, hopefully more healing way than before.

I've eaten PM for 3 1/2 years and I would say it's helped a lot of things. All my markers (apart from the fatigue itself) were already so much better; it's night and day. Digestion is the only marker that wasn't consistently better already, and that got a lot better in July, and has stayed better.

I did see some more healing from glucose in July, even more positive changes in circadian rhythm, sleep, brain fog, and that's not as prominent anymore, but I chalk it down to having immun responses nearly back to back for two months. I'm still seeing benefits, and I'm very happy with the results everything considered.

@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

This sounds so similar to my own experience with glucose. I remember that we both had reactivation of shingles around the same time, and both began taking glucose 3.5 months ago.

How are your temperatures and pulse? Mine are still doing well, consistently, but I've hit another rough patch. I sometimes wonder if I may have low grade fever. My morning temp seems high lately (98.9). I had constant "fever" and night sweats in my early 30's when I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease, but after working with a homeopath and getting H202 IV's the fever and night sweats ended. Maybe I'm retracing those symptoms now. Hopefully this too shall pass, like the others.

Is your pulse and temperature doing well even when you're in a rough patch? My pulse has mostly been very stable and good since starting PM. Temperature also got better with, but has continued to be a little low, and it still is.

I stopped having fevers at some point after my ME got triggered, but have had fever/flu like symptoms many times. People can go both ways, but it's not uncommon to have a much lower temperature with ME. (I know of someone who had sepsis without breaking a fever, and likely just survived because they knew to go to the hospital based on other symptoms). I've tended towards too cold, but I'm very close to "normal" now. I'm sort of hoping for a real fever at some point, but if a slower immune response is what my body prefers I trust it knows best.

@Mr-X said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

its absolutely insane that some here take up to 320grams of dextrose per day. And everybody is asking what can I do for my blood sugar crashes
is here somebody who did this protocol for several months and is now completely off glucose? I think after months of glucose loading you will go into hypoglycemic hell and youre in a worser state than before the protocol.

I'm one of the people who have blood sugar crashes, and I only take 144 grams a day. I've had more crashed while taking high doses at a time, rather than 1 tbsp every hour. Going back to 1 tbsp hasn't fully solved it yet though. And I think that's one of the tricky things about glucose, that sometimes and in some forms it lowers BG, but it can also increase BG. People react differently too.

I used a continuous glucose monitor for two weeks, and I would say I am over average good at making sense of patterns, but I was never able to make sense of the patterns of how I was responding to taking glucose, or of blood sugar levels. It's not the first protocol that's tricky to navigate though, so I'm not too worried about it. It doesn't make me think the protocol isn't working.

You asked a while back about outlining symptoms etc, and I didn't have the spoons to respond. I started at the beginning of July, so nearly at 3,5 months. My best metaphor for what is going on is that for years it's felt like I'm in the fight scene in an action movie, only my car won't start. The "bad guys" (fuel demands of all kinds, normal day to day stuff, but also reactivation of viruses etc) is "coming", and my body has not been able to fight any of it off. It's been a constant fight I have not been winning.

Now I'm still in the fight scene, so it's very intense at times, but the car is working. I've still got symptoms, but the body appears to successfully fight pathogens. However I think the glucose might fuel viruses etc as well, so I've got a lot of stuff reactivating.

I have probably had low grade infection many places in the body for years, including my brain. With no immune reaction pathogens probably just bob around and make a little mess all the time. It hasn't had much to fight, it's just taken over. Now the immune system is fighting back, and with more glucose the viruses also have more energy. For example:

First (two months ago) shingles tried to break out in the nerve pathway it has infected before, the pathways that goes to the thumb - I had flu like symptoms for 36 hours, but I didn't have a rash, and then some pain for a few days after. Then a couple of weeks ago I had a similar pain in my head and rash under my eye appeared, which the body fought off quickly. The rash disappeared, but then the pain was back in my thumb, and then the rash reappeared under my eye. Now it's gone down again, but I still have some pain. However none of it has been as painful as when the virus broke out properly, not the rash and not the nerve pain.

The body is still working on fighting off the infection, and I think that also means it is healing stuff in the brain that it hasn't been able to heal before.

I think the immune responses are a very, very good sign, and that it can be considered a win in terms of the the Itaconate shunt hypothesis for ME/CFS (separate from my hypothesis for why glucose may work).

I use other markers to see if it's getting better overall. Many of them are still not super consistent, so I don't feel 100% certain it's working, and I'm very unsure how much better it can make me. But there are enough good signs. Some of the "small" good signs are that my digestion is working consistently better, even with my sleep being very disrupted. Despite being under the weather for two months now my cycle is overall healthier.

@idealabsrat thanks!

@Ecstatic_Hamster How does that theory differ from the Itaconate shunt hypothesis? Seems to be very similar.

@idealabsrat thanks for clarifying! Where do you buy the thiamine powder? Can you recommend a brand?

@marmalade_cat said

I'm wondering how one determines that thiamine is being excreted in urine?

Me too, wasn't able to find anything on this when I searched.

Thanks for all the info, and I'll check out the profile.

@idealabsrat said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

At first I took a couple grams a day, and it took a week before it started to excrete in the urine.

What does that mean? Is that good or bad, and how do you know that's happening?

@idealabsrat That's interstiting - high dose B1 thiamine is one approach in the ME/CFS world. Some people get much better from it, but it's a whole protocol and can be very expensive, and I found the protocol confusing. I think it's based on the idea that there is a low level of pyruvate dehydrogenase, and B1 is needed to create that - but from what I understand the low level of PDH is a former theory to the Itaconate Shunt hypothesis.

What is the thinking behind high B1 thiamine in the approach you mention? Can you share details?

How's everyone's sleep and anxiety level? I've just switched back to 1 tbsp every hour, after doing a few weeks of 3x4 + 1. Now I'm suspecting the higher doses caused a BG spike (it did when I tried a bigger dose, while I was wearing a continuous glucose monitor), and therefore consecutive rapid fall or even crashes, during the night especially.

I think I've had the worst sleep I can remember having for years, incredibly anxious and wildly sensitive to sound. I didn't realize it could be the change in doses, because my building experienced two very unusual and activating events (that turned out to be nothing) at night during the week and a half before I switched. What I've thought of as anxiety in the past has practically always turned out to be low blood sugar, but these unusual events made me think this time it could be anxiety. So it took me a while to see the possible connection, but yesterday I switched back. And last night my hearing was normal, I couldn't "make" myself anxious even when I tried and I slept well again.

Now I'm even more curious about how low cortisol affects blood sugar regulation, and whether adrenaline takes over cortisol's job - and if adrenaline can be activated by just blood sugar falling, even if it's not low. If anyone has done any research about this let me know.

Thanks for the input about the glucose! It's in a plastic bag, and there's a noticeable difference between the two bags I got, where one smells way more. But I'll try to air them out and see what happens!

@Ecstatic_Hamster Thanks for sharing! I didn't know the names of the pathways, and had not had capacity to read up on it yet, but I've been thinking along the same lines. I don't remember if I already mentioned this, but I wonder if the liver will accumulate fat if it is prioritizing those pathways, since fat has more energy per gram, and as a side effect would not store as much glucose, which could exasperate the problem. I had a blood test show higher triglycerides (after the week I did high sucrose, before my glucose arrived) and I was thinking it was because the liver was releasing fat and making space for glycogen. I seem to have more glycogen stored now.

I just got a new bag of glucose, same brand, but it smells more perfumed. I don't use any kind of perfumed products so for me it's very strong, and the smell reminds me of perfumed soap. There's a similar aftertaste, but other than that I feel the same having it. Has anyone experienced this? I found some mentions of it when I googled, but I'm not sure it was pure glucose or other sweeteners.

@josh I'll try to respond more later, but wondering if you know that adrenaline and cortisol are activated when blood sugar is low? They're a part of the blood sugar regulation. If you feel adrenaline in the morning there's a good chance your blood sugar has dropped too low during the night.

(Low cortisol is also commonly seen in HPA axis dysregulation, serum or free. I've been trying to find how that may affect blood sugar regulation, if anyone has the answer let me know!)

I've had a daily meditation practice for a decade and do lots of things that are now considered "neuroplastic exercises" (fairly new concept, but it's been around in other forms), but in my experience avoiding low blood sugar with enough food was way more efficient than neuroplastic exercises, when the goal was to not activate the stress hormones

A year of enough food, eating often, nutrient dense meals and white sugar did more for my HPA axis imbalances than a decade of neuroplastic exercises, and my sense is glucose has done even more to balance those hormones.

@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

The itaconate shunt is certainly a plausible explanation for glucose limiting effects following injury or trauma. Is it the only explanation? I don't know. All I know is that glucose therapy seems to be working for many. Maybe it reverses the shunt? If you find more information about this, I'm interested.

I wonder if there's a misunderstanding, in regard to your previous posts, as well, before the one quoted here? I'm the only person who has written about the Itaconate Shunt as a possible explanation for glucose limitations, and why glucose might help reestablish the Krebs cycle. No new actual research is incoming about that. And I'm not looking for information to fully prove what I called an educated speculation, nor am I suggesting that it's the only explanation. I'm also not trying to persuade anyone; if it doesn't resonate (fully) for you, that's okay.

For me this kind of educated speculation (with sources etc) is an exploration, a tool, that allows me to give what is happening a framework. But it's more of a starting point for exploration; I'm not writing or sharing to conclude, and I'm quick to depart from a framework if reality doesn't fit in it.

I recognize my limitations and have a lot of humility about it all; I'm not here to do scientists work, and I think I've done a decent job at recognizing and pointing out the limits of my knowledge, as I'm sharing my speculations. I'm also not interested in being right, and when scientists (or anyone) find a more nuanced, better or completely different explanation, I'll applaud the work and be curious to read it.

All that said, the speculations I've shared are still a great tool for me. I wrote the speculation in July, before what I believe is my immune system started waking up. I wasn't expecting that to happen, because I didn't understand the immune system component of the Itaconate shunt back then. But when my immune system started waking up, I went back to my speculation, and it helped me make sense of what started happening. And that made it easier to rest and be patient, and not loose hope. It made it easier to hold the fear, when I got worse again. And it gave me a language so it is easier to speak to my GP about what is happening.

That way it's an incredibly helpful tool, and for me that's one of the best things I can hope for with this amateur dabbling into science. I'm delighted if it can be a supportive tool for others too, but I have zero expectation that it will resonate for everyone.

@josh said in Glucose loading cures everything?:

Is it because the HPA axis becomes more sensitive with every trauma, and more ready to switch into sympathetic mode, stress cascade and ultimately more fat metabolism, inhibiting glucose metabolism. Maybe flooding the system with glucose stops the stress hormones from needing to be activated and slowly over time this makes the HPA axis less reactive through neuroplastic pathways being desensitised.

Do you have any sources for this understanding of the HPA axis? That the HPA axis "becomes sensitive", what does that mean? The neuroplastic approach is a very mental one, often seen mentioned by people who believe in the biopsychosocial model. I'd say it's very far from a bioenergetic approach.