Starch is truly slave food

[Butter Girl]

@Mauritio said in Starch is truly slave food:

@Milk-Destroyer I'm convinced that Genghis khans empire was build on milk consumption.

It made them strong and flexible.
They drank a lot of horse milk, which has nutritional benefits over starch already. But not just that when other armies ran out of food during siege, they never did, because they had their horses with them. They drank their milk, ate their meat and used their dung for fire.

Maybe the empire collapsed when they stoped being nomadic, built cities and stopped consuming as much milk.

"...between 30 percent and 50 percent of their summertime dietary calories come from dairy products. These range from mare’s milk (men will consume up to eight liters of fermented airag a day), to lightweight, calorie-dense curds that can be transported and stored for up to two years—in all, more than 20 different dairy-based foods. "

https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/08/right-now-did-milk-build-mongol-empire

That’s very interesting. And they didn’t drink “skim” milk but the full fat milk of the horse.

Did they also drink cow’s milk? (Edit: looked at the link) Yes they did, as well as other “milks”.

Milk is the backbone of civilization really. Why mess with it?

[GreekDemiGod]

Idk, I see plenty of starch eating people in my country enjoying a vibrant and healthy youth in their 20s and 30s, at least. Being energetic, euphoric, extroverted, lean, with clear skin, good looking with developed maxilla.
Perhaps, they just have good genetics, good microbiome from their mother.

[Peatful]

Who’s not a slave?

[BioEclectic]

@Mauritio
And prior to Genghis Khan and even Muhammed's time nomadic ruminant pastoralists, an offshoot of ancient dairying cultures, were chiding more settled agricultural folks. It may all be myth but i've even read that they would hurl barbs about raising pigs.

As an aside, i've heard much good about camel's milk, and even an honorable mention of donkey's milk. Shrug.

Imo the best our current society can do with starch is to prepare it correctly and or stay away from the ones that don't agree with us. And i agree, if starch shares partial blame for decline the young can often get away with eating more while maintaining some vibrancy.

[Butter Girl]

@GreekDemiGod said in Starch is truly slave food:

Idk, I see plenty of starch eating people in my country enjoying a vibrant and healthy youth in their 20s and 30s, at least. Being energetic, euphoric, extroverted, lean, with clear skin, good looking with developed maxilla.
Perhaps, they just have good genetics, good microbiome from their mother.

I believe *some starch is important, yes. But I was mainly commenting on the importance of milk in civilization.

It’s like the foundation of it, the backbone. Societies wouldn’t have thrived without milk in some form.

[Androsclerozat]

@wester130 said in Starch is truly slave food:

@Androsclerozat if starch is slave food, what is PUFA in metaphorical terms?

Poison/adrenaline food

[Androsclerozat]

@onliest said in Starch is truly slave food:

@Androsclerozat

I personally thrive on sourdough, brioche and potatoes. My carb consumption is about 50/50 on sugar/fruit vs. starches.

Starches are more satiating than sugar and very tasty if cooked well. If red meat is the sine qua non of aristocratic cuisine why don't you give up peating and do raw carnivore

Seems fine 50/50
If it doesn't numb your emotions
Keep going
I ate yesterday some rice due to lack of money
Now not depressed but neither deep emotions
It feels ok but I couldn't imagine falling in love

[Androsclerozat]

@GreekDemiGod
If combining starches with drugs that increase intestinal permeability, such as caffeine, increases inflammation till of the point becoming delusional ego-driven, and meanwhile with sugar it doesn't happen
Then starches are not optimal
Even with perfect digestion, some starch particles will still enter the bloodstream

When I was alcoholic, the most rage and delusion I had after starches
If we live in a suboptimal environment, and gut is the most affected, then shouldn't we focus on easily digestible foods?

[Sitaruim]

I get 0 symptoms from starch and I enjoy it thoroughly, you don't have to go on a tirade just because you don't tolerate it

[Androsclerozat]

@Sitaruim said in Starch is truly slave food:

I get 0 symptoms from starch and I enjoy it thoroughly, you don't have to go on a tirade just because you don't tolerate it

I exaggerated a bit
I have good digestion on it
But it feels different not eating it, mentally
Have you tried without it?

One friend tried to explain me how it feels to eat kilos of toroco oranges
It was hard to believe that you can get euphoria out of it and he always used the phrase "You don't know until you know"

[Milk Destroyer]

@Androsclerozat I understand what you mean. Even when I am experimenting and feel like I am doing comparatively well eating starches, it feels like some aspect of my conciousness is missing. Probably not a part that's necessary for day to day wagie life but I like having it there none the less.

[Sitaruim]

@Androsclerozat I have tried going starchless but haven't noticed much change. I feel like a lot of people decide a priori that some aspect of their diet is at fault, then they change it and claim quickly thereafter to have made a breakthrough.
In orthorexic people, or in those who are always changing their diet, I claim that their so-called improvement is nothing more than a short burst of euphoria, or a heightened placebo effect, since they were obviously biased toward the new diet before adopting it.
Of course, a lot of people discover food intolerances this way, which is perfectly fine, I'm just referring to those people who conclude that X food is poison every three months

[banquos-ghost]

When suffering from chronic digestive issues, I've found that well-cooked starches, like white rice, potatoes, and oats, are better tolerated than simple sugars—and by well-cooked I do mean boiled for thirty minutes and mushy, but that's what digests easiest. I've never had a single issue with eating white rice boiled in bone broth; no matter my state of health, I can always digest it just fine.

Also, while I have tried eating only fruit for my carb source, I've found that it causes some lower-bowel discomfort and never fully satiates.

But the true slave diet, since we're on this topic, is one where you daily ingest chemically-contaminated, highly-processed, PUFA-laden, poison-laced food, with neither the will nor the knowledge to eat something that actually promotes, and not destroys, your health. Moreover, it's the lack of courage to comply with that health-promoting diet, especially when others may view it as unorthodox.

And, I should emphasize, to blindly follow any diet, be it one based on Ray Peat's work or another doctor's, without regular reflection and adjustment based on your body and health, is itself a form of slavishness!

[Ecstatic_Hamster]

starch is far, far better for us, than sugar. Most of us will get fat and have blood sugar problems on sugar, but well cooked starch, WITH a little fat, works very well.

That is how most of the not-fat world eats. We can augment and improve with dairy.

Starch is not slave food. It is very healthy and how virtually everyone who lives a long time eats. WITH dairy.

[LucH]

@Ecstatic_Hamster said in Starch is truly slave food:

starch is far, far better for us, than sugar. Most of us will get fat and have blood sugar problems on sugar, but well cooked starch, WITH a little fat, works very well.

Everyone won't agree on this subject.
RP found both OK as long as the quality is present and you listen to your body. I can develop this last point if desired.
Shortly said: starch is good as long you go easily to stools twice a day, to avoid stagnation in the second part of the colon. otherwise, dysbiosis will come soon.
Of course you manage well with counter-arguments: oxalates or arsenic in some cases.
Yes, dress your carbs and it will be fine, provided you have no problem with digestive enzymes.
For fruits, you avoid most of the time seeds and vary (...).
For vegetables, you have to manage well legumes (anti-proteinase) and you take into account the specifities: like sulfur for kale or other cruciferous, or oxalates / lectines.

Vary and adapt oneself to the situation / to the tolerances.

And don't tell me you have problem with insulin if you drink OJ or eat yoghurt, whenever you do it in the wrong way. I don't drink 20 cl OJ after a pancake with syrup or 200 gr Greek yogurt with a tsp sugar and 2 slices of bread.
Have you ever heard of Jessie Inaupsché? => Dress your carbs! And eat by listening to your body sensations. If you're still / if your liver is still recoverable.

[yerrag]

@Ecstatic_Hamster said in Starch is truly slave food:

starch is far, far better for us, than sugar. Most of us will get fat and have blood sugar problems on sugar, but well cooked starch, WITH a little fat, works very well.

That is how most of the not-fat world eats. We can augment and improve with dairy.

Starch is not slave food. It is very healthy and how virtually everyone who lives a long time eats. WITH dairy.

I knew it. Someone would talk sense.

People that don't do well on high glycemic carbs would have no choice but to go with starch that is less processed and have fiber to make these starches lower in the glycemic index. Or if they simply reject starch for no good reason, they would have no choice but turn to keto or carnivore, which would not produce better health outcomes in the long term.

When I had poor sugar metabolism, I found eating brown rice and sweet potatoes helped me manage my blood sugar to such extent that my blood sugar became stable and my health improved. After I improved my sugar metabolism to optimal, I went back to eating white rice and white bread (and my meals became more enjoyable) and I came to enjoy sugar, both white and muscovado, as I use them liberally. I came back to drinking and enjoying the satisfying yet guilt-free taste of original Coke.

Life is good when you can make it better by taking advantage of the good properties of starch as you heal and improve your sugar metabolism towards the pinnacle of optimal metabolic health where you can enjoy what you eat what was previously restricted and enjoy it and become more healthy as well.

This is what I consider having your cake and eating it too. Isn't life good?

[Milk Destroyer]

@yerrag I appreciate your personal wisdom on these topics as always yerrag, but I must ask you: what of those of us who are able to consume sucrose without issue but experience blood sugar fluctuations from glucose alone? Here you are saying that consuming the fibrous glucose sources helps with consuming the simple non-fibrous types and also sucrose sources like Cola but what if you handle something like Cola completely fine and it is the glucose sources fibrous or non-fibrous that are afflicting oneself? What is your opinion on such a matter?

[Milk Destroyer]

@yerrag said in Starch is truly slave food:

Or if they simply reject starch for no good reason, they would have no choice but turn to keto or carnivore, which would not produce better health outcomes in the long term.

Also, why is this your conclusion? There are many people that eat no starch but consume plenty of fructose and sucrose. There is no need to go to dangerous diets like carnivore or keto just from the lack of starch alone.

[yerrag]

@Milk-Destroyer said in Starch is truly slave food:

@yerrag I appreciate your personal wisdom on these topics as always yerrag, but I must ask you: what of those of us who are able to consume sucrose without issue but experience blood sugar fluctuations from glucose alone? Here you are saying that consuming the fibrous glucose sources helps with consuming the simple non-fibrous types and also sucrose sources like Cola but what if you handle something like Cola completely fine and it is the glucose sources fibrous or non-fibrous that are afflicting oneself? What is your opinion on such a matter?

Ray Peat has written in the past about fructose being much more easily absorbed and metabolize, so it would follow that sucrose, being half fructose and half glucose, would still be better than glucose in terms of being more easily metabolized. But it isn't that cut out, as individual responses vary. In my case, I couldn't take a teaspoon of white cane sugar without my blood sugar turning low and causing an adrenaline response. But that was then, and I've improved my sugar metabolism long ago.

That you can drink Coke easily without feeling bad from it may simply be that your body happens to handle a fifty-fifty combo of fructose and glucose better, where each helps in the absorption and metabolism of the other.

But with glucose, your body doesn't behave well, and there are not really that many root causes to that. It is a matter of identifying the root cause or causes, and eliminating these root causes. After going past the false narrative that it is genetic or part of your phenotype. But to list all the causes is too long, but just focusing on one cause is enough to fix it for most people, which is the presence of PUFA in our diet and in our fat stores. To eliminate this cause takes time. I did the 4 years of going cold turkey on PUFA conscientiously- something many people have no patience for.

Four years is a long time, and while waiting it out, what one can do is to manage his poor blood sugar control. This is by not continuing to test his inability to handle glucose sources that is equivalent to a heavy storm on a dry desert riverbed that cannot absorb water. These are white sugar, white bread, and white rice, to name a few. One has to try his best to eat 3 meals a day with carbs in the meal that would take much longer to digest, such that there won't be a deluge of sugar, but rather a slow trickle of it, going into the blood stream, which would take a much lo ger time to be exhausted. If this slow trickle lasts towards the next meal, then there won't be any chance for blood sugar to go low. You thus are able to achieve stable blood sugar levels in between meals throughout the day.

You do this for the next 4 years, and when the 4 years is up, you can test your ability to eat white rice and white bread and white sugar, doing it piecemeal, and gradually work towards replacing the carbs in your meals all with white rice or bread, or potato. And drink sugary drinks.

[yerrag]

@Milk-Destroyer said in Starch is truly slave food:

@yerrag said in Starch is truly slave food:

Or if they simply reject starch for no good reason, they would have no choice but turn to keto or carnivore, which would not produce better health outcomes in the long term.

Also, why is this your conclusion? There are many people that eat no starch but consume plenty of fructose and sucrose. There is no need to go to dangerous diets like carnivore or keto just from the lack of starch alone.

Are you one of these people? Are these people only able to consume fructose and sucrose well but cannot consume glucose well? If there are such people, I would have to include them instead of exclude them.

I just want to be clear that these people can not handle glucose well but only can handle fructose and sucrose well. As that is what you are saying.

But maybe these people just chose to eat fruits and drink Coke, but prefer not to eat starch-based carbs, which all turn into glucose. Simply because they hate the idea starch, for whatever reason they have. In this case, I would have to stand by what I said earlier.

Otoh, going sucrose and fructose is a valid choice, whether or not not taking glucose is a preference or an inability. I suppose there are those who prefer eating fruits and fruits contain more nutrition than starch.