Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1

Jennifer

@Mossy said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Jennifer said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy, I have a doctor treating my thyroid but if she refused to, I would feel confident ordering from a Mexican pharmacy. I feel my best when my TSH is <0.1, but doctors always pull me off my med when it gets that low and I’m expecting my current doctor to do the same. I’ve spoken with her about it and she’s willing to treat my symptoms, but only to a point. If my TSH gets below range, she’ll most likely reduce my dose so I’ll have to supplement the Armour with TyroMax and stop taking the latter a month before I get new labs.

Ok, good to know. You've reminded me that Labs would still be good to have when self-treating, so if/when I start thyroid I will have to order those myself. I may start vitamin D3 first, then go to thyroid based on how that makes me feel, with pro-thyroid being the goal.

Yes, I find labs are important to keep track of my cholesterol level—Ray told me if it’s too low, thyroid can trigger stress hormones—but temp, pulse, achilles tendon reflex, urine output and symptoms have been better diagnostics for my thyroid function than blood values. With that said, my doctor won’t prescribe me medication without a thyroid panel, and I feel my best when my TSH is suppressed. I think that’s a good idea to start with D3. I do wish I had trusted my intuition and got on thyroid before exhausting every other thyroid optimizing avenue, but there was a learning curve even with NDT and for some people, D3 and diet are enough to turn the hypothyroid tide.

Mossy

@Jennifer said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Jennifer said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy, I have a doctor treating my thyroid but if she refused to, I would feel confident ordering from a Mexican pharmacy. I feel my best when my TSH is <0.1, but doctors always pull me off my med when it gets that low and I’m expecting my current doctor to do the same. I’ve spoken with her about it and she’s willing to treat my symptoms, but only to a point. If my TSH gets below range, she’ll most likely reduce my dose so I’ll have to supplement the Armour with TyroMax and stop taking the latter a month before I get new labs.

Ok, good to know. You've reminded me that Labs would still be good to have when self-treating, so if/when I start thyroid I will have to order those myself. I may start vitamin D3 first, then go to thyroid based on how that makes me feel, with pro-thyroid being the goal.

Yes, I find labs are important to keep track of my cholesterol level—Ray told me if it’s too low, thyroid can trigger stress hormones—but temp, pulse, achilles tendon reflex, urine output and symptoms have been better diagnostics for my thyroid function than blood values. With that said, my doctor won’t prescribe me medication without a thyroid panel, and I feel my best when my TSH is suppressed. I think that’s a good idea to start with D3. I do wish I had trusted my intuition and got on thyroid before exhausting every other thyroid optimizing avenue, but there was a learning curve even with NDT and for some people, D3 and diet are enough to turn the hypothyroid tide.

I appreciate your thoroughness and additional information. The fact that Ray said those markers are even better than blood values gives me quite a bit of confidence to go with those, at least for starters. I realize I won't know my cholesterol without a blood test, but if a stress response is triggered that would be obvious. I do remember you mentioning that you did feel best with a low TSH, "...as low as .008", so I have no problem attempting the same. Ok, so it sounds like you felt you wasted time and energy when you should've just gone to thyroid. If I wasn't so sensitive to supplements I probably would do that. I took 10,000 IU of D3 the night before last, with calcium acetate (calcium carbonate in vinegar) an hour prior to it (in an attempt to mitigate negative effects from the D3) and it has me a little wired, which turns into wired and tired at times, but not as bad as I can be on most supplements. Depending on how I feel by tomorrow, I will either continue with this current D3 (not certain about the calcium), possibly try the lichen-derived D3 (though the potency, being considerably less, wouldn't allow me to use 10,000 IU doses cost-effectively), or jump in with the thyroid—but it's that learning curve you and everyone else speaks of that I will have to be ready to deal with. It sounds like thyroid is better for you than D3, but that maybe thyroid is more involved and creates more of a dependency. Or am I misinterpreting?

Mossy

@Serotoninskeptic said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy Yes labs are always good to know but they aernt the best indicator of thyroid health. I usually get 1-2 a year. Checking your temperature and pulse could be a better measurement.

Ok, that seconds what Jennifer was saying. Then I won't spend the money on labs at first.

Serotoninskeptic

@Mossy Yes, if your temp and pulse are suboptimal and you feel other symptoms, than i would get labs to try and figure out the underlying cause

onliest

@SpaceManJim B-complex

Serotoninskeptic

@onliest What benefits do you get from B-Complex? Do you use energin or a different brand

Jennifer

@Mossy said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Jennifer said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Jennifer said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy, I have a doctor treating my thyroid but if she refused to, I would feel confident ordering from a Mexican pharmacy. I feel my best when my TSH is <0.1, but doctors always pull me off my med when it gets that low and I’m expecting my current doctor to do the same. I’ve spoken with her about it and she’s willing to treat my symptoms, but only to a point. If my TSH gets below range, she’ll most likely reduce my dose so I’ll have to supplement the Armour with TyroMax and stop taking the latter a month before I get new labs.

Ok, good to know. You've reminded me that Labs would still be good to have when self-treating, so if/when I start thyroid I will have to order those myself. I may start vitamin D3 first, then go to thyroid based on how that makes me feel, with pro-thyroid being the goal.

Yes, I find labs are important to keep track of my cholesterol level—Ray told me if it’s too low, thyroid can trigger stress hormones—but temp, pulse, achilles tendon reflex, urine output and symptoms have been better diagnostics for my thyroid function than blood values. With that said, my doctor won’t prescribe me medication without a thyroid panel, and I feel my best when my TSH is suppressed. I think that’s a good idea to start with D3. I do wish I had trusted my intuition and got on thyroid before exhausting every other thyroid optimizing avenue, but there was a learning curve even with NDT and for some people, D3 and diet are enough to turn the hypothyroid tide.

I appreciate your thoroughness and additional information. The fact that Ray said those markers are even better than blood values gives me quite a bit of confidence to go with those, at least for starters. I realize I won't know my cholesterol without a blood test, but if a stress response is triggered that would be obvious. I do remember you mentioning that you did feel best with a low TSH, "...as low as .008", so I have no problem attempting the same. Ok, so it sounds like you felt you wasted time and energy when you should've just gone to thyroid. If I wasn't so sensitive to supplements I probably would do that. I took 10,000 IU of D3 the night before last, with calcium acetate (calcium carbonate in vinegar) an hour prior to it (in an attempt to mitigate negative effects from the D3) and it has me a little wired, which turns into wired and tired at times, but not as bad as I can be on most supplements. Depending on how I feel by tomorrow, I will either continue with this current D3 (not certain about the calcium), possibly try the lichen-derived D3 (though the potency, being considerably less, wouldn't allow me to use 10,000 IU doses cost-effectively), or jump in with the thyroid—but it's that learning curve you and everyone else speaks of that I will have to be ready to deal with. It sounds like thyroid is better for you than D3, but that maybe thyroid is more involved and creates more of a dependency. Or am I misinterpreting?

Oh, Ray didn’t tell me that. I find them to be more reliable. Regarding vitamin D3–do you have a deficiency and if not, could you have taken too much? 10,000 IUs is quite a large dose. I usually take 2,000 IUs in the spring and summer and 5,000 IUs in the fall and winter. Thyroid is definitely better for me than D3 but is more involved, yes. I know it’s said that vitamin D is more like a hormone or pro-hormone but for me, it’s nothing like taking actual hormones. The latter is far more potent, IME.

Serotoninskeptic

@Jennifer Yea taking actual hormones requires a lot more fine tuning, preciseness, and involvement. But the outcome when you get it right can be life changing

Jennifer

@Serotoninskeptic, radical self-love/acceptance and release work were the most transformative tools for me—I’m a firm believer that complete and lasting healing is an inside job and taking our healing one step further passed the cell back to the self—but thyroid was the most helpful supplement in supporting the process.

Serotoninskeptic

@Jennifer Beautifully said! I agree that is a very good take. Not sure if youve read my thread here before where i explained how thyroid made me more open minded and less dogmatic about my firm harsh beliefs. Opening up to new ideas (especially about nutrition and my personal body image) is really what made the difference but thyroid helped greatly along the way.

Mossy

@Jennifer said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Jennifer said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Jennifer said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy, I have a doctor treating my thyroid but if she refused to, I would feel confident ordering from a Mexican pharmacy. I feel my best when my TSH is <0.1, but doctors always pull me off my med when it gets that low and I’m expecting my current doctor to do the same. I’ve spoken with her about it and she’s willing to treat my symptoms, but only to a point. If my TSH gets below range, she’ll most likely reduce my dose so I’ll have to supplement the Armour with TyroMax and stop taking the latter a month before I get new labs.

Ok, good to know. You've reminded me that Labs would still be good to have when self-treating, so if/when I start thyroid I will have to order those myself. I may start vitamin D3 first, then go to thyroid based on how that makes me feel, with pro-thyroid being the goal.

Yes, I find labs are important to keep track of my cholesterol level—Ray told me if it’s too low, thyroid can trigger stress hormones—but temp, pulse, achilles tendon reflex, urine output and symptoms have been better diagnostics for my thyroid function than blood values. With that said, my doctor won’t prescribe me medication without a thyroid panel, and I feel my best when my TSH is suppressed. I think that’s a good idea to start with D3. I do wish I had trusted my intuition and got on thyroid before exhausting every other thyroid optimizing avenue, but there was a learning curve even with NDT and for some people, D3 and diet are enough to turn the hypothyroid tide.

I appreciate your thoroughness and additional information. The fact that Ray said those markers are even better than blood values gives me quite a bit of confidence to go with those, at least for starters. I realize I won't know my cholesterol without a blood test, but if a stress response is triggered that would be obvious. I do remember you mentioning that you did feel best with a low TSH, "...as low as .008", so I have no problem attempting the same. Ok, so it sounds like you felt you wasted time and energy when you should've just gone to thyroid. If I wasn't so sensitive to supplements I probably would do that. I took 10,000 IU of D3 the night before last, with calcium acetate (calcium carbonate in vinegar) an hour prior to it (in an attempt to mitigate negative effects from the D3) and it has me a little wired, which turns into wired and tired at times, but not as bad as I can be on most supplements. Depending on how I feel by tomorrow, I will either continue with this current D3 (not certain about the calcium), possibly try the lichen-derived D3 (though the potency, being considerably less, wouldn't allow me to use 10,000 IU doses cost-effectively), or jump in with the thyroid—but it's that learning curve you and everyone else speaks of that I will have to be ready to deal with. It sounds like thyroid is better for you than D3, but that maybe thyroid is more involved and creates more of a dependency. Or am I misinterpreting?

Oh, Ray didn’t tell me that. I find them to be more reliable. Regarding vitamin D3–do you have a deficiency and if not, could you have taken too much? 10,000 IUs is quite a large dose. I usually take 2,000 IUs in the spring and summer and 5,000 IUs in the fall and winter. Thyroid is definitely better for me than D3 but is more involved, yes. I know it’s said that vitamin D is more like a hormone or pro-hormone but for me, it’s nothing like taking actual hormones. The latter is far more potent, IME.

I do have a vitamin D deficiency, which is why I tend to be determined to make supplementing with it work. My thought was to load up at first and then taper down to a lower dose. Here is a quote from Peat about a dose that high that has given me the confidence to try it. (This is someone else asking him the question, not me.) :

Q: “Was tested low in vitamin D. Would supplementing 8,000 units a day be too much?”

“If you figure that being in a bathing suit in the sun for 20 or 30 minutes enough to just start turning pink, that can make 10,000 or 15,000 units. So 5,000 or 10,000 units is never gonna be harmful. I've never heard of 10,000 a day being harmful.” - Ray Peat

You're lucky you've had such success with thyroid. If this experiment with vitamin D3 doesn't work out, I'll probably go to thyroid next.

LucH

@Mossy said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

I do have a vitamin D deficiency, which is why I tend to be determined to make supplementing with it work.

Hi,
When Vit D is deficient, magnesium should be tightly kept round 380 - 450 mg.

Interaction of magnesium with the status of vitamin D.
“Magnesium supplementation increased the 25(OH)D3 concentration when baseline 25(OH)D concentrations were close to 30 ng/mL, but decreased it when baseline 25(OH)D was higher (from ∼30 to 50 ng/mL). Magnesium treatment significantly affected 24,25(OH)2D3 concentration when baseline 25(OH)D concentration was 50 ng/mL but not 30 ng/mL.
Conclusion: Our findings suggest that optimal magnesium status may be important for optimizing 25(OH)D status.” (6-7))
More info (In French, translator needed, but with links in English)
Le niveau de vitamine D plafonne (Vitamin D level plateaus)
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1598-le-niveau-de-vitamine-d-plafonne#19020
Here is one reason why your D3 supplementation isn't working.

Excerpt of the post on my forum (translated)
Magnesium status influences the assimilation of vitamin D3
Key ideas
Magnesium is an essential cofactor for the synthesis and activation of vitamin D, but taking large doses of vitamin D can induce a Mg deficiency.
Some people plateau in the assimilation of active vitamin D3. We will try to understand why.
• We already knew that there was a synergy between fat-soluble vitamins but their assimilation is interconnected, and interference from the level of low-grade inflammation impacts the level of active vitamin D3.
• We have a feedback mechanism modulating the absorption of Mg, vitamin D and calcium, in order to maintain homeostasis.
• For example, magnesium would control the possible toxicity of excess vitamin D3.
• Research establishes that the Ca/Mg ratio ≈ 2:1 is optimal. However, an increased intake of unused calcium, for example following a lack of K2, can lead to an increase in urinary excretion of magnesium.
• Poor electrolyte balance can lead to autoregulation via inactivation: conversion of the active form of vitamin D to calcitriol.
Indeed, calcitriol induces the expression of 24-hydroxylase (CYP24A1) which converts 25(OH)D3 and 1,25(OH)2D3 into inactive metabolites.

LucH

Interaction between fat-soluble vitamins A D K
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t127-interaction-entre-les-vitamines-liposolubles#889
See second post (on the link) for the original article in English
Key ideas
Nutritionists talk about vitamin K as if there were only one type!
We know the role of vitamin K1 (phytomenadione) for its role in coagulation. It is mainly found in green vegetables.
Vitamin K2 (menaquinone) is less well known and has no RDA recommended by health authorities!
We can convert K1 into K2 but it is random and notoriously insufficient.
K2 plays a key role in the activation of hormones that regulate calcium metabolism: osteocalcin, which is involved in the mineralization of bone matrix, and matrix Gla protein (MGP), which protects soft tissues against calcification.
The role of vitamin K2 is not limited to these functions alone. Here, it is much more than a co-factor because vitamin K2 is the substance that allows dependent proteins A and D to activate/come to life. While vitamins A and D act as signaling molecules, telling cells to produce certain proteins, vitamin K2 activates these proteins, giving them the physical ability to bind calcium.

Mossy

@LucH said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

I do have a vitamin D deficiency, which is why I tend to be determined to make supplementing with it work.

Hi,
When Vit D is deficient, magnesium should be tightly kept round 380 - 450 mg.

Interaction of magnesium with the status of vitamin D.
“Magnesium supplementation increased the 25(OH)D3 concentration when baseline 25(OH)D concentrations were close to 30 ng/mL, but decreased it when baseline 25(OH)D was higher (from ∼30 to 50 ng/mL). Magnesium treatment significantly affected 24,25(OH)2D3 concentration when baseline 25(OH)D concentration was 50 ng/mL but not 30 ng/mL.
Conclusion: Our findings suggest that optimal magnesium status may be important for optimizing 25(OH)D status.” (6-7))
More info (In French, translator needed, but with links in English)
Le niveau de vitamine D plafonne (Vitamin D level plateaus)
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1598-le-niveau-de-vitamine-d-plafonne#19020
Here is one reason why your D3 supplementation isn't working.

Excerpt of the post on my forum (translated)
Magnesium status influences the assimilation of vitamin D3
Key ideas
Magnesium is an essential cofactor for the synthesis and activation of vitamin D, but taking large doses of vitamin D can induce a Mg deficiency.
Some people plateau in the assimilation of active vitamin D3. We will try to understand why.
• We already knew that there was a synergy between fat-soluble vitamins but their assimilation is interconnected, and interference from the level of low-grade inflammation impacts the level of active vitamin D3.
• We have a feedback mechanism modulating the absorption of Mg, vitamin D and calcium, in order to maintain homeostasis.
• For example, magnesium would control the possible toxicity of excess vitamin D3.
• Research establishes that the Ca/Mg ratio ≈ 2:1 is optimal. However, an increased intake of unused calcium, for example following a lack of K2, can lead to an increase in urinary excretion of magnesium.
• Poor electrolyte balance can lead to autoregulation via inactivation: conversion of the active form of vitamin D to calcitriol.
Indeed, calcitriol induces the expression of 24-hydroxylase (CYP24A1) which converts 25(OH)D3 and 1,25(OH)2D3 into inactive metabolites.

Hello, thank you for this. I don't doubt that I'm magnesium deficient, and I do attempt to stay replete, but supplements are very hit and miss for me. Since starting with D3 again, I'm using magnesium oil (magnesium chloride) topically, though I'm not certain of the dose. You seem to think that the dose needs to be in that exact range. Apart from supplementing, it would be tough to know that I'm keeping it in that range. Regardless, I am attempting to get some.

LucH

If I decode the last two posts, trying to find an explanation why you plateau:
If you haven't the adequate amount of Vit K2 to activate other liposoluble vitamins, you're going to get a mess with 5 000 UI. More if 10.000 UI.
Note I take 5 000 UI D3 in winter and springtime, 2 000 UI in the summer time when I don't go out.
But I always take K2 before taking a supplement higher than 2 000 UI Vit D3. We need a lot of fat to assimilate K2. Proportional.
And I never take a supplement of Ca above 200-250 mg. I do take a calcium supplement when my log tells me I'm under 850 mg Ca, from more than a 200 mg distance, considering the whole acid-base balance to determine my decision (followed on cronometer.com).
For Ca, I target 850 - 1200 mg Ca. Never under 650 mg. However It could be OK round 550 mg Ca if you live like an islander, feeding with white see fish and a high intake of vegetable (potassium), and working outside. Not eating much processed foodstuff (made from flour and added devitalized sugar).
Sugar is OK, provided you do not store (insulin reaction in excess), you metabolize well and don't lack essential nutrients to burn fuel.
I mean you have to adapt the amount of glucose brought to your energy level / expenditure.

drjdmccoy

Magnesium pidolate powder. I’ve used every magnesium and this one has been very unique. High absorption of the magnesium and the pyroglutamic acid is a game changer

Cheers

PeatPerspective

@b1 How much calcium do you roughly get a day?

LucH

@PeatPerspective said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

How much calcium do you roughly get a day?

Target Ca Short answer
I target 850 mg Ca, as RP said. Optimal between 800 – 1200 mg. Never under 650 mg.
For me, keeping Ca/P ratio under 2 should be closely targeted. Nice objective to reach to keep PTH under control.
I can give a link if desired if you want more details.

Mossy

@LucH said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

If I decode the last two posts, trying to find an explanation why you plateau:
If you haven't the adequate amount of Vit K2 to activate other liposoluble vitamins, you're going to get a mess with 5 000 UI. More if 10.000 UI.
Note I take 5 000 UI D3 in winter and springtime, 2 000 UI in the summer time when I don't go out.
But I always take K2 before taking a supplement higher than 2 000 UI Vit D3. We need a lot of fat to assimilate K2. Proportional.
And I never take a supplement of Ca above 200-250 mg. I do take a calcium supplement when my log tells me I'm under 850 mg Ca, from more than a 200 mg distance, considering the whole acid-base balance to determine my decision (followed on cronometer.com).
For Ca, I target 850 - 1200 mg Ca. Never under 650 mg. However It could be OK round 550 mg Ca if you live like an islander, feeding with white see fish and a high intake of vegetable (potassium), and working outside. Not eating much processed foodstuff (made from flour and added devitalized sugar).
Sugar is OK, provided you do not store (insulin reaction in excess), you metabolize well and don't lack essential nutrients to burn fuel.
I mean you have to adapt the amount of glucose brought to your energy level / expenditure.

I do take K2, but I've been taking it several hours after the D3. I thought I had read some place to do that, as they compete if taken at the same time — but I can't find that anywhere in my notes. You note that you take K2 before D3; is there a reason you don't combine them? As well, I'll reduce the 10,000 IU dose, based on yours and Jennifer's comments. I'll start low and work my way up as needed, versus loading with large doses up front.

Do you have any thoughts about getting all calcium and magnesium from food when supplementing D3 and K2? Calcium can be hard on my gut, but I have experienced some relief making calcium acetate, adding vinegar to calcium carbonate.

Btw, in searching my notes, I see a comment from you in 2015, from RPF, seeming to support the use of taurine with fat soluble vitamins. Do you have any experience or comments on this to share, at almost 10 years later?

Thank you.

P.S. I've translated your previous link into English, so that is giving me some additional information. But you're still welcome to provide anything that you think would help. Thank you.