B-complex and or Multi recommendation?
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Hi guys
any peaty B-complex beside Energin, or Multivitamin would you recommend?
in the case of using a b-complex, is a multimineral a good idea?
I eat liver once per week and seafood, occasionally oysters, the rest is eggs, white rice, fruit, ground beef, cheese and some chicken breast.
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@GRay good question. was wondering myself, after brewer’s yeast and Energin, which (Peat friendly) B-complex would be best for someone who'd like the option of taking a tablet or capsule.
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@16charactersitis Energin looks good, I like the fact that doesn't have any b12 or folate. Pricy though.
Do you take any minerals supplement? I used to use life extension multivitamin, just a capsule a couple of times per week.
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@GRay said in B-complex and or Multi recommendation?:
in the case of using a b-complex, is a multimineral a good idea?
We often lack potassium (unless you eat vegan or eat 8 portions of fruit / vegetable) and magnesium. Not possible to get the right amount in a softgel or a tablet.
Vtamin B complex paradox
I won’t take a B-50 complex every day. No need and after all counter-productive (1). I personally take it twice a week.
B50 stimulates cell growth when taking every day, on long-lasting term, if B1 < 90 mg. So, not in cure. Expressed differently, RDA is OK (1.2 mg B1), high dose thiamin (B1) is OK when higher than 90 mg B1.Sources & references
- The dichotomous effect of thiamine supplementation on cancer cell growth is characterized by growth stimulation at low doses and growth suppression at high doses. Unfortunately, how thiamine reduces cancer cell proliferation is currently unknown.
Source: National Institutes of Health (NIH)
High Dose Vitamin B1 Reduces Proliferation in Cancer Cell Lines Analogous to Dichloroacetate
doi: 10.1007/s00280-014-2386-z 2014. Cancer Chemother Pharmacol. - The Dark Side of B Complex Vitamin Supplementation (In French, translator needed, but with links in English)
Interest in appropriate and balanced supplementation. Put differently, too much of a good thing is counterproductive.
Key ideas
- The art of correctly measuring a pharmacological dosage
- B50 stimulates cell growth (if B1 < 90 mg)
- HD Thiamin depletes riboflavin (B2)
- If you stimulate step 1 of glycolysis (glucose => Pyruvic Acid => Acetyl CoA), without adequate intake of nutrients useful for step 2 (Acetyl CoA => Citric acid cycle), for example B6 or biotin, you will create an imbalance, which, if the situation continues, will lead to neurological deficiencies.
To be continued / detailed on my forum (in French):
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2070-le-cote-obscur-de-la-supplementation-en-vitamines-b-complexes#29900
- The benefits and harms of dietary supplements
https://nutrition.tufts.edu/news/nutrients-food-not-supplements
Fang Fang Zhang, M.D., Ph.D at Tufts University
Excerpt:
The researchers found the use of dietary supplements had no influence on mortality. People with adequate intake of vitamin A, vitamin K, magnesium, zinc, and copper were less likely to die. However, that relationship only held for nutrient intake from food consumption.
Note’s author (LucH): There are biases / limitations in this study (the way of life, nutrient interactions, the posology and the form of supplements).
- The dichotomous effect of thiamine supplementation on cancer cell growth is characterized by growth stimulation at low doses and growth suppression at high doses. Unfortunately, how thiamine reduces cancer cell proliferation is currently unknown.
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@GRay Your diet sounds pretty nutrient dense why do you feel the need for a multi vitamin?
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@Serotoninskeptic I think I benefit from taking once or twice per week some B-complex, and I think it may be a good idea to get some extra Selenium, manganese, molybdenum and chromium due to the unsure content of these in food, perhaps copper too.
do you know what is the general idea in the peat world about supplementing with minerals? is some mineral recommended beside Magnesium and Calcium if dairy is not eaten?
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interesting. Another reason why some brilliant people recommend to take B complex only once or twice per week. Paul Jaminett would recommend as well B-50 once per week.
wouldn't it be better to use an activated B-complex at all times?
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For B-vitamins: Energin, ATP Labs Methyl-SynerB, Objective Nutrients has clean methylated and non-methylated options.
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@albion thank you!
do you know if its always better to get the methylated version, even when there is not MTHFR mutation gene?
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@GRay It's not always better. Some people get anxiety from methylated vitamins, others don't. Others still do good with methylated forms but experience an initial period of depression, and so on. I wouldn't overthink it, especially when taking a B-complex which can provide balance such that most issues are mitigated. And going down the rabbithole of methylation, in my experience, is one of the lowest ROI avenues for personal nutrition research one can go down (the best to get out of it is the right/non-toxic forms of various B's, especially B9 and B12—I'll save you the trouble: calcium folinate or MTHF (methylated), and adenosylcobalamin/hydroxycobalamin or methylcobalamin (methylated)). Elliot Overton of Objective Nutrients basically did the research for you for the "best forms" depending on what you want with his two B-complexes—maybe the best path for self-experimentation with this would be to try his non-methylated complex first then the methylated.
With the methylated stuff I tend to get weird agitation symptoms after many repeated days of dosing, but I still get noticeable benefit (energy, focus) from the complex, so I take it up to 3x per week. Any issues resolve within a day of ceasing supplementation. Vitamin A, Glycine, and Niacinamide are methyl buffers if you ever get what you suspect to be overmethylation symptoms.
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@albion
The thing about excessive methyl-groups especially through TMG / betaine but also through the better choice of choline is that they decrease the pressure on demethylation of methionine into cysteine and other downstream sulfur metabolites.
Hence they create a relative lack of cystine, cysteine and sulfate. A lack of cysteine messes with your glutathione synthesis and a lack of sulfate messes with your hormones.
That's also how to get avitaminosis E (in spite of sufficient vitamin E) because essential functions of vitamin E are about sulfation i.e. depending on sulfate as substrate. -
@CrumblingCookie said in B-complex and or Multi recommendation?:
Hence they create a relative lack of cystine, cysteine and sulfate.
Do you mean that when lowering homocysteine high enough with a high dose TMG, there is not enough cystine and cysteine remaining to ensure metabolic functions?
I didn't find information after a Google search.
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@GRay how bad are Alani energy drinks? They have B vitamins.
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@GRay said in B-complex and or Multi recommendation?:
extra Selenium, manganese, molybdenum and chromium
Chronometer says parsley and some herbs have considerable amounts of selenium. Is this accurate?
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@LucH said:
Do you mean that when lowering homocysteine high enough with a high dose TMG, there is not enough cystine and cysteine remaining to ensure metabolic functions?
Yes. By doing this you deprave the CBS pathway. With use of TMG, betaine, creatinine, choline you also get less endogenous taurine at the end of that which is however the least important in this context.
IMO it's important to up sulfur intakes and get enough P5P for CBS if taking any of those.
It's also why supplementing methionine is mostly unwise whereas extra cysteine is effective as high methionine is never a full subsitute for low cysteine or sulfates in a diet and doesn't mitigate stunted metabolism.If you're aware of the profound metabolic role of vitamin E you need to also be of sulfate because without either there's disturbed sulfate fixation onto cellular lipoproteins and overall failure in sulfomucopolysaccharide metabolism. Then there's also failure to form intramolecular crosslinkages and proper maturation of collagen fibers.
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My suggestion for a vitamin B complex is the Source Naturals "Coenzymate" B Complex plus extra a-GPC plus extra sulfate.
It's really hard to find a reasonable OTC B-complex with the proper ingredients and without ludicrous doses. IMO it's really important to provide those vitamins B steadily as in at least 2 times daily.
Not sure why no-one ever has yet pointed out that Energin contains the good P5P but in aqueous solution and hence that P5P is going to degrade very quickly within hours and days into toxic metabolites which actually inhibit P5P-dependent enzymes (https://doi.org/10.1111/jphp.12701, https://doi.org/10.1016/0304-4165(72)90148-1).
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@CrumblingCookie Would you recommend someone trying to diagnose if they need more Cysteine to take NAC? If yes, just as a diagnostic tool or ok as a regular/intermittent supplement?
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thank you very much for the info.
I do remember now the methylated b9 and b12 form being better for some reason, thanks for the reminding me about that.
I used life extension two per day for years, for the low cost and activated b's, and it made me think now if I was actually experiencing some side effects you mentioned, as I have being off for over a week and I fall a sleep better, but feel more sleepy during the day though.
I'm checking again the products you recommended, thanks again.
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@Corngold said in B-complex and or Multi recommendation?:
Alani energy
I just took a quick look at it, there is citric acid in it.
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@CrumblingCookie said in B-complex and or Multi recommendation?:
Source Naturals "Coenzymate" B Complex
thanks for the suggestion. However, this product contain cellulose gum and magnesium stearate.
B vitamins can actually accumulate and stay in circulations for days, but it makes sense to take a small dose more often, perhaps it is not necessary though
interesting study about P5P, I may just stay away from Energin, too expensive also I believe.
