B-complex and or Multi recommendation?
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@GRay Your diet sounds pretty nutrient dense why do you feel the need for a multi vitamin?
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@Serotoninskeptic I think I benefit from taking once or twice per week some B-complex, and I think it may be a good idea to get some extra Selenium, manganese, molybdenum and chromium due to the unsure content of these in food, perhaps copper too.
do you know what is the general idea in the peat world about supplementing with minerals? is some mineral recommended beside Magnesium and Calcium if dairy is not eaten?
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interesting. Another reason why some brilliant people recommend to take B complex only once or twice per week. Paul Jaminett would recommend as well B-50 once per week.
wouldn't it be better to use an activated B-complex at all times?
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For B-vitamins: Energin, ATP Labs Methyl-SynerB, Objective Nutrients has clean methylated and non-methylated options.
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@albion thank you!
do you know if its always better to get the methylated version, even when there is not MTHFR mutation gene?
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@GRay It's not always better. Some people get anxiety from methylated vitamins, others don't. Others still do good with methylated forms but experience an initial period of depression, and so on. I wouldn't overthink it, especially when taking a B-complex which can provide balance such that most issues are mitigated. And going down the rabbithole of methylation, in my experience, is one of the lowest ROI avenues for personal nutrition research one can go down (the best to get out of it is the right/non-toxic forms of various B's, especially B9 and B12—I'll save you the trouble: calcium folinate or MTHF (methylated), and adenosylcobalamin/hydroxycobalamin or methylcobalamin (methylated)). Elliot Overton of Objective Nutrients basically did the research for you for the "best forms" depending on what you want with his two B-complexes—maybe the best path for self-experimentation with this would be to try his non-methylated complex first then the methylated.
With the methylated stuff I tend to get weird agitation symptoms after many repeated days of dosing, but I still get noticeable benefit (energy, focus) from the complex, so I take it up to 3x per week. Any issues resolve within a day of ceasing supplementation. Vitamin A, Glycine, and Niacinamide are methyl buffers if you ever get what you suspect to be overmethylation symptoms.
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@albion
The thing about excessive methyl-groups especially through TMG / betaine but also through the better choice of choline is that they decrease the pressure on demethylation of methionine into cysteine and other downstream sulfur metabolites.
Hence they create a relative lack of cystine, cysteine and sulfate. A lack of cysteine messes with your glutathione synthesis and a lack of sulfate messes with your hormones.
That's also how to get avitaminosis E (in spite of sufficient vitamin E) because essential functions of vitamin E are about sulfation i.e. depending on sulfate as substrate. -
@CrumblingCookie said in B-complex and or Multi recommendation?:
Hence they create a relative lack of cystine, cysteine and sulfate.
Do you mean that when lowering homocysteine high enough with a high dose TMG, there is not enough cystine and cysteine remaining to ensure metabolic functions?
I didn't find information after a Google search.
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@GRay how bad are Alani energy drinks? They have B vitamins.
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@GRay said in B-complex and or Multi recommendation?:
extra Selenium, manganese, molybdenum and chromium
Chronometer says parsley and some herbs have considerable amounts of selenium. Is this accurate?
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@LucH said:
Do you mean that when lowering homocysteine high enough with a high dose TMG, there is not enough cystine and cysteine remaining to ensure metabolic functions?
Yes. By doing this you deprave the CBS pathway. With use of TMG, betaine, creatinine, choline you also get less endogenous taurine at the end of that which is however the least important in this context.
IMO it's important to up sulfur intakes and get enough P5P for CBS if taking any of those.
It's also why supplementing methionine is mostly unwise whereas extra cysteine is effective as high methionine is never a full subsitute for low cysteine or sulfates in a diet and doesn't mitigate stunted metabolism.If you're aware of the profound metabolic role of vitamin E you need to also be of sulfate because without either there's disturbed sulfate fixation onto cellular lipoproteins and overall failure in sulfomucopolysaccharide metabolism. Then there's also failure to form intramolecular crosslinkages and proper maturation of collagen fibers.
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My suggestion for a vitamin B complex is the Source Naturals "Coenzymate" B Complex plus extra a-GPC plus extra sulfate.
It's really hard to find a reasonable OTC B-complex with the proper ingredients and without ludicrous doses. IMO it's really important to provide those vitamins B steadily as in at least 2 times daily.
Not sure why no-one ever has yet pointed out that Energin contains the good P5P but in aqueous solution and hence that P5P is going to degrade very quickly within hours and days into toxic metabolites which actually inhibit P5P-dependent enzymes (https://doi.org/10.1111/jphp.12701, https://doi.org/10.1016/0304-4165(72)90148-1).
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@CrumblingCookie Would you recommend someone trying to diagnose if they need more Cysteine to take NAC? If yes, just as a diagnostic tool or ok as a regular/intermittent supplement?
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thank you very much for the info.
I do remember now the methylated b9 and b12 form being better for some reason, thanks for the reminding me about that.
I used life extension two per day for years, for the low cost and activated b's, and it made me think now if I was actually experiencing some side effects you mentioned, as I have being off for over a week and I fall a sleep better, but feel more sleepy during the day though.
I'm checking again the products you recommended, thanks again.
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@Corngold said in B-complex and or Multi recommendation?:
Alani energy
I just took a quick look at it, there is citric acid in it.
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@CrumblingCookie said in B-complex and or Multi recommendation?:
Source Naturals "Coenzymate" B Complex
thanks for the suggestion. However, this product contain cellulose gum and magnesium stearate.
B vitamins can actually accumulate and stay in circulations for days, but it makes sense to take a small dose more often, perhaps it is not necessary though
interesting study about P5P, I may just stay away from Energin, too expensive also I believe.
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@albion said in B-complex and or Multi recommendation?:
Would you recommend someone trying to diagnose if they need more Cysteine to take NAC? If yes, just as a diagnostic tool or ok as a regular/intermittent supplement?
Mind the combination of NAC with B3, if high dose, at a prolonged use.
*) When Niacin(or vitamin B3) and NAC (N-acetyl cysteine) are combined, especially under specific pH and concentration conditions, a chemical reaction may occur that forms pyrazinic acid (pyrazine).
Most sources specify that no interaction has been found between NAC and niacinamide (or nicotinamide). This is incorrect when there is prolonged concomitant use with a high dosage of NAC.
The toxic effects of pyrazinic acid may include cellular damage and oxidative stress, which is of particular concern for people with predispositions to oxidative stress-related diseases.Sources and References
- Hepatotoxicity related to anti-tuberculosis drugs: mechanisms and management
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jceh.2012.12.001 2013.
The toxicity of pyrazinamide is both dose dependent with a higher dose at 40–50 mg/kg, with NAC combination. (2 800 to 3 500 mg NAC for 70 Kg/weight, or +/ 170 Lb). - Unproven (questionable) cancer therapies.
ML Brigden - Western Journal of Medicine, 1995 - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Mega-doses of vitamin B3 (niacin) have liver toxicity and have produced acid peptic disease,
myocardial infarct, gouty arthritis, glucose intolerance, hyperkeratosis, and skin rashes."
- Hepatotoxicity related to anti-tuberculosis drugs: mechanisms and management
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@GRay said in B-complex and or Multi recommendation?:
I just took a quick look at it, there is citric acid in it.
Can you tell me roughly the danger of citric acid? Is there a Peat article on it?
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@Corngold I didn't really retain much info on Citric Acid, I heard Georgi talking about it many times in a negative way as cancer promoter, perhaps Ray Peat has some article or interview about it.
