Posts made by Mossy

I find that no matter how Peaty advisors are, they all demonize sugar, and many carbs. As for sugar, I believe that is the case with Casey and Calley Means.

For those familiar with Barnes, is it known if these patients continued on thyroid indefinitely, after recovering from their deficient state?

I'm always curious what would happen if someone who recovered to a healthy and more productive state than they had prior, and take on more responsibilities and commitments, and then find for some reason they have to go off of thyroid, if they maintain the new found health or are back to the original?

@yerrag Hi Yerrag,

I appreciate your concern, and I think to a large degree you're justified in voicing it. For words simply published on the wild west of the internet shouldn't just be swallowed blind. Given my history of poor health and many years of trial and error with supplements, with about a 1% success rate — no matter who the advice comes from — I remain fairly open to various positions. If something is too outlandish it will usually stick out to me, and I do attempt to use Peat as a measuring rod against what I read. Though, sometimes I will stray from that where it might make sense to do so. I welcome your caution and comments, and will take them to heart as I venture forward in my healing quest.

@GRay No worries on the delay; as you see, I'm delayed myself.

It's hard for me to always follow these principles with proper understanding, but how are you concluding that the dissolved in SFA pregnenolone was oral and not topical and that it is now 10:1? By the fact that it will bypass first metabolism in the liver?

If I sound ignorant it's because I am. I try to glean what I can from all of my notes, but I end up getting lost through the twist and turns. For, as you're showing, we can hear one thing one day and something different another day. This is no knock on Haidut at all, or anyone else, I know these things are complicated, especially for those of us who have no background in biology, medicine, etc.

@Jennifer said in Thyroid Supplementation safety?:

You’re welcome, @RawGoatMilk88.

@Mossy, I started my dad on NDT and it was his first time taking thyroid, yes. Knowing that Dr. Barnes used NDT on his patients and thyroid glands were a regular part of my ancestors’ diet, I felt more comfortable starting him on desiccated thyroid. I felt so comfortable with it, I planned on supplementing it indefinitely myself after optimizing my thyroid function, to mitigate the stress of living in a cold climate and being a caregiver, and I just came across this quote by Ray the other day that supports the idea:

“[T3 for someone who's been chronically running on adrenaline?] When T3 is used in small doses, such as 3 or 4 mcg at a time, it can be very effective for lowering adrenalin by letting glucose be more fully oxidized. It’s helpful to keep a chart of your waking and midday temperature and pulse rate to watch the cumulative effects of the T3, so you can adjust the dose. A dose at bedtime typically makes it possible to go to sleep quickly; it should be supported by things like orange juice, cheese, and milk. A natural desiccated thyroid product, in the long run, is a convenient way to keep your metabolic rate where it should be.”

https://raypeatforum.com/wiki/index.php/Ray_Peat_Email_Exchanges#Thyroid_Hormo

Great. Thank you. Good to know it can be used for beginners.

@Serotoninskeptic said in Glycine + N-Acetylcysteine increases lifespan by ~25%.:

@Mossy Do you have a link to the products you are referencing?

I searched for the one with proline but couldn't find it. Here is one with the glycine and NAC:

https://www.amazon.com/Pure-Encapsulations-NAC-Glycine-Powder/dp/B08WJDLHMJ

I'll continue to look for the one with proline.

@LucH said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

@Mossy said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

I keep an open mind — and as you know by now, ask a lot of questions.

I've be discussing the link you gave there:
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2064-why-the-odd-with-calcium-recommendation#29866
Why weird recommendations about calcium supplement?
Introduction
I had an interesting discussion with Mossy on Bioenergetics Forum about oxalates problems.
“Clearing up the confusion about oxalate lists”
https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/3165/clearing-up-the-confusion-about-oxalate-lists/15
But as I'm not in the best position there to speak freely, I decided to post here, to better control the deviations and digressions.

I will take a look as time allows. Thank you.

There are products available that contain this combination, and I've seen one that adds proline. I've made my own version of this, but the glycine always ends up wiping me out. And the general consensus about NAC has me hesitant to pursue it any further.

@LucH said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

@Mossy

I have just read the randomized study on the concomitant taking of Ca and Vit D. you posted. Interesting. Thanks.
I’ll come back soon to give a report because there are biases. The author recognizes that there are “gaps” in certain studies (some parameters being not mentioned or forgotten) but he draws conclusions, even though it is well known that a higher dosage Ca should not be taken above 1000/1200 mg. In addition, the authors did not take into account all the activation factors (vitamin K2) or factors that soften/temper the effects of high dose Vit D (thanks to vitamin A, retinol).

But as you could read it, from one influent and insightful (?) forumer, the latter attributes me a copycat reasoning (IA) and a lack of knowledge of RP literature. I agree to concede to him that he has a better grasp / understanding of the “philosophy” of RP’s writings. My knowledge is only partial. And I maintain a certain independence. Too long to explain why here. And I don't really want to argue (sterile and unpleasant).
By the way, my forum has been existing for more than 10 years, and AI is only available from 2 years, less here in Europe.

No hard feelings, but the one_whose_name _I _won't _mention has just dropped in my esteem. What a pity! But hey, I can admit that we all have bad days, except that it's not his first time, when he has someone in his sights.
NB: I intended first to analyze the whole study but I won't do it now. Guess why ...

It's very hard to understand the workings of the body in general, let alone the unique state each of us are in, and what it would take to truly help and rejuvenate us to a better state, one that would objectively take us over the threshold from subpar to flourishing. So, I keep an open mind — and as you know by now, ask a lot of questions. For those of us who are not doctors or scientists, we wing it and go with the anecdotal experiences of ourselves and others, as well as doing our due diligence in research and gaining more expert knowledge. So, I don't expect all that I read on forums will be the last word and the best advice. But hopefully at some point our understanding will grow and our hunches and educated guesses will lead to more reliable and fruitful results.

@wrl I realize many people have concerns about microwaves — I used to be one of them — and that there are many tests that seem to show that they are bad, but many who have used them live fairly normal and long lives. I think it would be smart to not use plastic when you use one, and to not stand directly in front of it when it's running.

@Tarzan17
Ray Peat had no problem with microwaves and didn't think they affected the nutrients of food:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-iUZso6ieU

@Jennifer said in Thyroid Supplementation safety?:

@RawGoatMilk88, when someone has heart disease, my first suspicion is hypothyroidism, and I put my own father on thyroid after he had bypass surgery. Dr. Broda Barnes observed a 94% reduction in coronary heart disease in the 1,569 patients he treated for hypothyroidism using desiccated thyroid. Here is a quote by Ray you might find useful:

“If someone is in a precarious condition, even smaller amounts of thyroid at a time might be better. For example, a man in the hospital right after a heart attack started taking one mcg per hour; the doctors had said that at the rate his enzymes were rising they would be expected to keep rising for another day, but they started decreasing exactly when he started the small doses, and they had decreased the next day when he left the hospital, without symptoms. T3, sugar, and aspirin are the most heart-protective things.”

https://raypeatforum.com/wiki/index.php/Ray_Peat_Email_Exchanges#Thyroid_Hormones

Hey Jennifer, I'm curious if you started your father right away on the NDT, with the 4:1, T4:T3 ratio, and if that was his first time on it? I ask after listening to Danny Roddy mention that some may have to work up to the ratio of NDT, starting with only T3, or a 1:1 ratio of T4:T3. If you had success right off the bat with the NDT, maybe it is worth jumping right into it. I ask as I prepare myself and my father for possible thyroid supplementation.

@Amazoniac said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@LucH said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

There is no time frame recommended on that post for K2 to be taken before the D3. I was taking calcium acetate an hour before the D3. Do you have any thoughts on that before time frame?

well, I use logics:
1° you've understood why K2 has to be taken before A D3 K1 and K2 supplement, since K2 activates the dependent lipoproteins.
2. We need fats to assimilate lipoproteins. 35 g is required for vit K. Assimilation is proportional to the amount of fat.
So the time required is given by the digestive process. Roughly said 3 hours for fats but it could take more time if you get digestive problems, like a lack of enzymes or a lack of acidity to digest proteins.
3° Conclusion:

Most of the time, I take K2 at breakfast.

When there is no cheese or ham (e.g.) I add 6-8 macadamia nuts. Not enough but it's OK.
At midday, I take Vit D3 5.000 UI.
Note: Once a week I begin with retinol 10 000 UI at breakfast, and K2 at midday, and D3 at supper. I should have begun with K2.
When I use tocopherols (2x/wk) I take a softgel (400 UI mixed toco) with a snack (low level of fat needed) if there is a problem.
Note: to be perfect: I should take K2 MK4 twice a day (half-life of type MK4 is shorter than MK7).
Mind with the type MK7: very fragile (oxidation). 3 months delay if not well encapsulated and protected with e.g. rosmarinus

Thank you LucH, for all the detail. I do only take K2 MK4, MK7 gives me heart issues. Wow, that is quite a bit of fat — 35 grams. I do remember Haidut recommending at least 14g of fat with fat soluble vitamins.

I see you don't mention taking calcium. Is that the case, that you don't supplement calcium along with A, D, and K2?

You can try to compensate for the lower absorption with a higher dose or through repetition. It's fine to waste some of it because it's what happens when vitamin K is obtained from plants. You'll be taking it in purified form, not having to deal with the food matrix. In this case, little fat is enough to make a difference.

Effect of dietary fat content on oral bioavailability of menatetrenone in humans

Note how the response to vitamin K with the lowest amount of fat in the meal was far from null and close to that with the average amount.

You may also stimulate bile discharge or supplement it:

• Porcine bile acids promote the utilization of fat and vitamin A under low-fat diets

To rely on topical supplementation is an option as well.

Hello Amazoniac, and thank you. Glad to see you've found yourself a Ray Peat forum again, after banishment by The Lion.

This is interesting, though, that the larger fat intake definitely potentiates the K2, or so the chart shows.

And your last comment is helpful, as I was wondering if the fat content would be unnecessary with topical application. Maybe even with topical it could be argued that consuming fat would help. Just a thought.

@GRay I have a lot of notes about pregnenolone from RPF, but the most relevant to your question would be the following, which confirms the 10:1 effectiveness of topical to oral, as well as giving more detail on the oral route. If I remember correctly, this quote is from Haidut:

"Usually 10mg or below should be sedating. In one human study 1mg improved sleep a LOT and it would not have done so if it was stimulating. But it really depends on the hormonal state of each person. It has not been tested on too many people but I have tested on myself. Taking the full 20mg dose StressNon topically in one sitting results in about the same pregnenolone concentration as an oral dose of about 200mg pregnenolone. The blood tests were done 1 and 8 hours post administration. Oral StressNon is similar to oral pregnenolone, so no advantage in taking it orally. But topically, StressNon seems to have about 10:1 effectiveness in raising blood pregnenolone levels. Both oral and topical pregnenolone will undergo a heavy conversion into other steroids. Both liver and skin are very active steroidogenic organs. But the liver likes to accumulate pregnenolone (as does the brain) so if you ingest even a hefty dose, very little of it will end up in the bloodstream as unchanged pregnenolone. The liver will convert maybe 60% to other steroids, keep another 30%-35% for itself and only let about 1%-2% unchanged pregnenolone in the blood. Topical pregnenolone , while also undergoing conversion does not metabolize as extensively unless you apply to a really large skin area. So, topical pregnenolone will deliver more unchanged pregnenolone to the blood, especially when the carrier is DMSO."

@LucH There is a lot to absorb here. I scanned through your posts attempting to glean if supplemental calcium should be dealt with in the same way as dietary calcium, with regard to balancing calcium with oxalates and supplemental magnesium. Until I dig further to confirm otherwise, at first glance it seems supplemental calcium would not warrant the same oxalate concerns.

You may find this study interesting: Calcium and Vitamin D Supplementation and Their Association with Kidney Stone Disease: A Narrative Review

@Serotoninskeptic said in Ideas/tips for insatiable hunger at night:

@Mossy I just started doing this too. I restrict protein after midday and my sleep has improved greatly

Interesting. I don't know if I could go low protein after midday.

I remember reading very recently (but can't remember where) that Peat recommended fat and carbs as food to be eaten closer to bed time, versus heavy on the protein. Granted, that probably won't help with less weight gain, if that's an objective, but it may help with feeling satiated for better sleep.

@Ecstatic_Hamster said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Ecstatic_Hamster said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

The best supplementing regimen for magnesium I have found, and it's also the cheapest, is to mix magnesium carbonate with apple cider vinegar. I use about 1300 milligrams of magnesium carbonate with about 40 milliliters of apple cider vinegar, which largely neutralizes it but leaves it a bit acid. Then I mix it with water and drink it.

This has been extremely helpful because the magnesium seems to work very well in this state and I never get any bowel problems. It does stop constipation but seems to be a very easily metabolized form and the apple cider vinegar forming the acetate seems to be very good for my gut.

Excellent timing. I had just made a note to myself to try magnesium carbonate, per one of Peat's articles. I will try this as my magnesium source, along with D3, K2, and Calcium. I've just started calcium acetate, using calcium carbonate in vinegar. I thought it worth asking if you know of a reason why I couldn't just add the magnesium carbonate to the mix of calcium carbonate and vinegar?

Yes you should either use magnesium carbonate or calcium carbonate with ACV. But you only can use the proper amount to neutralize the ACV. In my experience, taking carbonates cause me to get heartburn, but taking it with ACV is perfect as no digestive issues at all. I lean to making it slightly acidic and not slightly alkaline.

Great. I appreciate the added detail. I've put your recipe in my notes.

@LucH said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@Mossy said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

There is no time frame recommended on that post for K2 to be taken before the D3. I was taking calcium acetate an hour before the D3. Do you have any thoughts on that before time frame?

well, I use logics:
1° you've understood why K2 has to be taken before A D3 K1 and K2 supplement, since K2 activates the dependent lipoproteins.
2. We need fats to assimilate lipoproteins. 35 g is required for vit K. Assimilation is proportional to the amount of fat.
So the time required is given by the digestive process. Roughly said 3 hours for fats but it could take more time if you get digestive problems, like a lack of enzymes or a lack of acidity to digest proteins.
3° Conclusion:

Most of the time, I take K2 at breakfast.

When there is no cheese or ham (e.g.) I add 6-8 macadamia nuts. Not enough but it's OK.
At midday, I take Vit D3 5.000 UI.
Note: Once a week I begin with retinol 10 000 UI at breakfast, and K2 at midday, and D3 at supper. I should have begun with K2.
When I use tocopherols (2x/wk) I take a softgel (400 UI mixed toco) with a snack (low level of fat needed) if there is a problem.
Note: to be perfect: I should take K2 MK4 twice a day (half-life of type MK4 is shorter than MK7).
Mind with the type MK7: very fragile (oxidation). 3 months delay if not well encapsulated and protected with e.g. rosmarinus

Thank you LucH, for all the detail. I do only take K2 MK4, MK7 gives me heart issues. Wow, that is quite a bit of fat — 35 grams. I do remember Haidut recommending at least 14g of fat with fat soluble vitamins.

I see you don't mention taking calcium. Is that the case, that you don't supplement calcium along with A, D, and K2?

@LucH said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

@PeatPerspective said in Your top daily supplement? If you had to pick just 1:

Yeah I would love a source. I just read the Peat Whisperer by Danny Roddy where he recommended 5k-7k calcium a day

K2 plays a key role in the activation of hormones that regulate calcium metabolism: osteocalcin, which is involved in the mineralization of bone matrix, and matrix Gla protein (MGP), which protects soft tissues against calcification.
The role of vitamin K2 is not limited to these functions alone. Here, it is much more than a co-factor because vitamin K2 is the substance that allows dependent proteins A and D to activate/come to life. While vitamins A and D act as signaling molecules, telling cells to produce certain proteins, vitamin K2 activates these proteins, giving them the physical ability to bind calcium.
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1935-optimiser-l-assimilation-du-calcium-en-supplement#29858
See 2nd &: Why taking K2 before and not after taking high dose vitamin D3 (5 000 UI).

There is no time frame recommended on that post for K2 to be taken before the D3. I was taking calcium acetate an hour before the D3. Do you have any thoughts on that before time frame?